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Blogged by JC on 07.22.05 @ 12:59 PM ET

Hearing on the National Security Consequences of
Disclosing the Identity of a Covert Intelligence Officer


wideshot
I just left a joint hearing of the Senate Democratic Policy Committee and the House Government Reform Committee Minority on the "National Security Consequences of Disclosing the Identity of a Covert Intelligence Officer." The hearing was held at 10:00am in the Dirksen Senate Office Building (not the basement surprisingly) and televised live on C-SPAN3. If you did not see it, check for a re-run on CSPAN -- I highly recommend it. It was the most informative event on the issue of Rovegate I have seen.

My friends Henry Waxman and Senator Byron Dorgan were co-chairs of the hearing and we were joined by my former House Judiciary colleague (and now Senator) Chuck Schumer, Louise Slaughter, Jay Inslee and Rush Holt.

The witnesses were incredible, all former CIA officials, Larry Johnson -- a former CIA analyst and classmate of Valerie Wilson; Colonel W. Patrick Lang -- Former Director of the Defense Human Intelligence Service; Jim Marcinkowski, a former CIA case officer and fellow Michigander from Royal Oak; and David MacMichael -- Former Senior Estimates Officer from the National Intelligence Council.

They have joined other former CIA officials in sending an open letter to the House and Senate. Many of these officials, including -- I suspect -- more than one of the witnesses, are Republicans. In it, and their testimony, the debunked many of the White House generated myths about this case. Anyone with an open mind would have to have been persuaded that, regardless of who may have committed this crime, it is a very serious matter.

Among other things, I was most interested in testimony about the ripple effects a diclsosure like this has on all of our intelligence gathering capabilities in the war on terrorism. Colonel Lang, among others, aptly described the trust that is necessary to recruit and retain foreign assets to help us gather intelligence. When it becomes known that the United States does not protect its own covert assets, foreign assets begin to have serious doubts about whether the United States will protect their identities.

The disclosure of Mrs. Wilson's covert identity has other more immediate ripple effects as well. She had set up a front company, Brewster-Jennings, and the disclosure of her identity likely led to the disclosure of others affiliated with Brewster-Jennings and others affiliated with them. A web of connections literally can become unraveled when something like this happens.

I know many of the most ardent White House defenders are in denial about this and want to say the leak didn't matter. They rely on misleading and out of context quotes and deliberate deceptions about how covert operations really work to try to sow confusion.

The bottom line: The CIA, not Democrats in Congress, determined a crime was likely committed here and made the referral to the Department of Justice. Does anyone really think they don't know who is covert and who isn't? Moreover, after a disclosure like this, the CIA prepares a damage report on the totality of the impact of the leak. One was prepared in this case. Does anyone really think that if the report indicated that the leak didn't do any damage to national security, and the report was therefore helpful to the case of the Bush apologists, the report itself would not have been leaked by the Bush Administration?

Those who deny these essential facts are only delaying the inevitable. Something very wrong happened here, wrong on a number of levels -- legal, ethical and moral. This truth is going to continue to come out and the facts will not be in dispute.


conyersrovegatehrg


Replies: 242 Comments


Comment #1: sofa said on 7/22/05 @ 1:17pm ET...

I heard Larry Johnson on Al Franken's show recently. Can't wait to see the video.

Thank you, Mister Conyers.



Comment #2: Nolip said on 7/22/05 @ 1:22pm ET...

Congressman Conyers,
These hearings will build to a cacaphonous roar that this nation will not stand for an Administration that "shucks and jives" its way across the political landscape while lying to its elected officials and the people themselves.
There will be a reckoning! The truth will come out and your efforts will be recognized for casting the light of truth on this tangled web of lies and deceit originating in the White House and casting a wide net pulling in the likes of Cheney, Rove and Libby.



Comment #3: Horkus said on 7/22/05 @ 1:57pm ET...

The CIA is a very large organization and very secret. From all the things I've read about the CIA, some were good, some were bad, but that's beside the point. The secrecy of CIA operatives must always be kept secret. It's like the office of the president. As much as a disrespectful
clown BushII has been, the office of the presidency must be respected in order to preserve it for future presidents who might actually use their position to do some good.

The office of this president didn't
respect the basic tenet that CIA operatives have to follow in order to do their jobs. Slash and Burn politics at its finest, brought to you by the BushII Admin.

I'd love nothing more than to see the current administration crooks carried out by an angry mob, but civility benefits us all.
Thanks for fighting hard in the most civil manner, JC. We've seen all the obstacles put forth by the Republican Party Loyalists. You have all our respects.



Comment #4: hcocdr said on 7/22/05 @ 2:00pm ET...

Here's a Dem I might vote for if it were not for the being a lawyer, a Marine, and for killing kids in the woumb. At least he has the right ideas on the war. That being with Iraqi Army 24/7, we are already doing that at our base.

Iraq War Veteran Runs for U.S. House Seat
Friday, July 22, 2005

SEAMAN, Ohio — A few months ago, Paul Hackett was flushing out insurgents and avoiding ambushes in Fallujah, Ramadi and other hotspots in the Iraq. Today, the Marine is trying to round up votes in small southern Ohio towns like this one.

Hackett, a Democrat, is running in a special election Aug. 2 in a bid to become the first Iraq war veteran elected to Congress.

So at dawn on a recent day, he was having eggs and toast at the Cruiser Diner, recounting his war experiences to a young soldier facing Iraq duty later this year.

Later that day, he was campaigning among avid hunters in Adams County, telling them about the guns he keeps at home and joking: "I thought gun control was when you hit your target."

And in the town of Peebles, he found himself talking with two retired veterans about tattoos, like the Marine emblem he has over his heart.

The 43-year-old lawyer, former Milford city councilman and Marine Reserve major is hoping his battlefield experience will help him become the first Democrat to get elected in Ohio's conservative 2nd District in three decades.

He is facing a well-known, experienced Republican — former state Rep. Jean Schmidt — in the seven counties stretching eastward from the Cincinnati suburbs through largely rural areas.

Hackett said he was urged by friends to run when he returned from Iraq in March. He calls his candidacy "a natural extension" of his military service, and says going to Congress as the lone Iraq war veteran could give him a voice on the war and related issues.

Although Hackett initially opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq as a pre-emptive war (search) that "set a bad precedent," he now says: "We're there now. My Marines are over there fighting. We can't cut and run .... I want to see what we're doing in Iraq work out."

He said training of Iraqi forces must be dramatically improved, and U.S. units should be paired with Iraqi units for "24-7" teamwork and training.

For her part, Schmidt has said that she supported the war from the beginning and that Iraqi troops need to be trained to defend their country before the U.S. pulls out.

Schmidt and Hackett both espouse fiscal conservatism and limited government, although she goes into more detail with proposals such as eliminating estate and capital gains taxes (search) and instituting a flat tax (search). Another difference: He supports abortion rights (search), while she heads the Cincinnati area Right to Life.

A Hackett TV commercial that began airing this week opens with a clip of President Bush saying: "There is no higher calling than service in our armed forces." Hackett also recounts his decision to volunteer last year to serve seven months in Iraq.

That Hackett is on television at all is remarkable in deep-red southwestern Ohio, which helped tilt Ohio's crucial 20 electoral votes to Bush last year. Seven-term Republican Bob Portman (search) regularly won with more than 70 percent of the vote before leaving Congress to becoming Bush's U.S. trade representative this year.

Army Lt. Paul Worley, 23, of Peebles, said he likes the idea of a congressman veteran as he prepares for Iraq duty later this year: "You can't substitute anything for leadership by example, somebody who's been there and seen it."

Others do not see Hackett's military background as reason to vote for him.

"He was in the military; there's been a lot of people in the military," said David Werring, a farmer who served in the Marines. "It's nice, but I want to get down to the real issues."

He cites Schmidt's push for a national energy policy that would include more emphasis on ethanol.

Schmidt, 53, has been in politics most of her life, as a GOP official, township trustee or state legislator, and has emphasized her experience.

Stuart Rothenberg, editor of a nonpartisan Washington political report, said a Hackett victory would be "a mega-surprise" in the heavily Republican district.

As the election nears, Hackett is getting more help from state and national Democrats, with a $1,000-a-head fund-raiser with strategist James Carville this week, and a campaign visit Thursday by Max Cleland (search), the disabled Vietnam veteran and former senator from Georgia.

Launching into a 15-hour day of campaigning, Hackett scoffed as he recalled someone telling him how hard the campaign life was: "I get to see my family at home every night; that's better than being in Iraq. The potshots I take .... are better than the potshots in Iraq."



Comment #5: Lemon said on 7/22/05 @ 2:02pm ET...

[Edited by admin -- not only is this completely off topic, but it is very lengthy. Please simply post two (or so) relevant paras and a link.]



Comment #6: autorank from DU said on 7/22/05 @ 2:24pm ET...

Cong. Conyers:

I'm proud to be a Democrat again, particularly when I see my party doing the right things like today's hearing. If the full House and Senate can't bring themselves to investigate critical violations of national security, it's necessary for the Democrats to do this.

I hope DNC starts hammering on the theme: Democrats are strong on national security. That's the only conclusion that the public should draw based on the Democrat hearings on Downing Street and now Plame.

Thank you.



Comment #7: Jo said on 7/22/05 @ 2:47pm ET...

Sofa, I missed the Larry Johnson interview and can't find it on Frankin's site. About when was it? Anyone wishing to contribute to Paul Hackett's fund can do it on the Frankin site.



Comment #8: Jo said on 7/22/05 @ 3:00pm ET...

Never mind I found it. Needed to scroll down a bit more. Thanks. Looks good.



Comment #9: wayne said on 7/22/05 @ 3:50pm ET...

I have been blogging parts of this story that deal only with the path to war and WMD.

http://miawmdwtfw.blogspot.com/

Check it out!



Comment #10: Patriot said on 7/22/05 @ 3:52pm ET...

I'm still alive. My monitor blew the tube, so I've put off working until after the party. There's so much to do with that!

I'll get back on the Time Line Project on Monday. I'll take Sunday off to rest!

I haven't had time to keep up, so am a bit behind on the postings, but Mr. Conyers, that's an impressive forum you had today. Thanks for all your efforts. Together, we will bring America back to the truth!



Comment #11: ljm said on 7/22/05 @ 4:07pm ET...

i listened to part of the hearing on C-Span 3, so am glad to know you weren't in the basement again. I hope C-Span airs it for full viewing soon. I'd like to watch the entire hearing. I'm glad you feel you've had a productive day. You didn't sound like yesterday was, with the Patriot Act Forever passing.



Comment #12: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/22/05 @ 4:24pm ET...

Which should tell you, Rep. Conyers, that you have allies inside the CIA. All you have to do is contact them. After the abuse they took in the months leading up to the war and being made the scapegoat after the war, I guarantee there's plenty of senior staff members just itching to tell their story to the right person. Mr. Conyers, you may or may not be 'the right person' but with your connections, I'm sure you can think of someone who would.

Take a chance and make a few simple inquiries. Leave a few phishing lines at the CIA and see what happens. You just might hit paydirt.

After all, uncovering secret information is what they do over there.



Comment #13: Seth Cowen said on 7/22/05 @ 4:30pm ET...

"more than one of the witnesses, are Republicans".

"The bottom line: The CIA, not Democrats in Congress, determined a crime was likely committed here and made the referral to the Department of Justice".

Very well worded Mr. Conyers.

It is sticking to the facts and making good clear non-partisan points about the issues that will bring about the truth.

It appears that even Mr. Conyers is starting to realize that talking about Democrats this and Republicans that, is no longer what is needed.

Although I would like to see all political Party Politics swept out of America, I beliee that a unity of all citizens even if they are registered in political parties is a good thing. Mr. Conyers is starting to use words that will likely be payed attention to by people of different political parties.

Today I am very hopefull that Mr. Conyers is more interesrted in the well being of America than the well being of the Democrat Politial Party.

Today could very well be a tipping point in our History.

Maybe now that Mr. Conyers is leading by example, the rest of the Democrat Party members and Republicans will start to intelligently portray facts instead of just spewing party politics propaganda.

I suppose America can survive with Political Parties, just not Party Politics.

Afterall what can be the harm of Political Parties if Americans are loyal to America instead of their Political Party?. As long as Americans are willing to accept that the Politcal Party they belong to does not controll them , or keep them from listening to someone of another Political Party, and as long as Americans don't just believe everything the news tells them, I think that America might actualy prevail.

God Bless America



Comment #14: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/22/05 @ 5:36pm ET...

Uncovered: The Whole Truth About The Iraq War will be airing on the Sundance channel on July 27 at 10:30 a.m. and 10:30 p.m. eastern time. Dated 2004.
Any one seen this before?



Comment #15: Seth Cowen said on 7/22/05 @ 5:49pm ET...

How about a name change?

Rovegate is to shaky.

What about:

Wilson Gate?

Plame Gate?

Langley Gate?

WhiteHouseGate?

Or even drop the Gate?

BushTreason?

BushCoup?

WhiteHouseTreason?

BushTraitor?

Afterall this is something new and potentially far worse than Watergate.

I think of Waterate, and I think White water, ah just a typical Presidential crime.

Why is it that the President wants to act all high and mighty and responsible when he is taking credit for all the good things that the people under his command do, but when someone tortures someone, or gossips about covert C.I.A operations, all of a sudden he is just the man at the top and he does not know what is going on under him?

Doesn't that kinda sound like the ENORON excuse, and the TYCO excuse?

Seth Cowen



Comment #16: Doug Kenline said on 7/22/05 @ 8:16pm ET...

Thanks for the photos!

Great photos!

More photos!

More photos!



Comment #17: NO DUmmie said on 7/22/05 @ 8:20pm ET...

Rep. Conyers, did anyone mention Israelis this time?



Comment #18: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/22/05 @ 8:32pm ET...

Good point Seth, the name Rovegate only trivializes it.
Was there a problem with this page earlier? I couldn't get it for an hour or so. Was it just me?



Comment #19: Kitty Gambler said on 7/22/05 @ 8:37pm ET...

#15 (Seth) -

"IRAQ-NEOCON TREASONS"



Comment #20: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/22/05 @ 8:42pm ET...

Wow, what happened to the server? I could not get on for several hours and now I notice nobody posted betweem 6 amd 8.

NoDummie ghost troll at it again. No substance at all.

The best way to deal with a troll is to ignore it.
*

Good to see you here Seth.

I agree with everyone here that "RoveGate" ties into the whole picture. But what I want to know is, is there enough evidence to bring anyone other than Rove to trial?

The other question is what happens to all the classified documents generated by one administration? Is it archived somewhere or destroyed? Is it available for review by subsequent administrations or is it sealed?

I believe there's an orgy of evidence that's been classified. If subsequent administrations can access it, we could go back and nail them. Even Bush; Presidential immunity does not apply to treason.

Assuming subsequent administrations can access previous administrations classified documents, even if we fail to bring a single charge to trial, we have not lost the war.



Comment #21: Rusty said on 7/22/05 @ 8:59pm ET...

Hcocdr,

Whatever attention you get here is more than you deserve.

Most of us consider it useful for you to post information here regarding the good things our soldiers are doing in Iraq.

In contrast, it is despicable for you to repeatedly blame us for the deaths of innocent people in Iraq. The insurgents and terrorists who are slaughtering innocent people are not doing that because we are criticizing Bush.

It is also despicable for you to compare us to Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera peddles political propaganda, just like you do. THEY never report anything negative about what Muslims do, and YOU never report anything negative about what Americans do.

YOU are the one who sounds like an American version of Al Jazeera, not us.

You are not fighting for our freedom over there, nor for anyone else's freedom. Our troops there are fighting to prop up an Iraqi government that is already being exposed as corrupt. Billions of dollars are missing, Baathists are infiltrating their way back into the government and security forces, and the Iraqi government is seeking closer economic and political ties with Iran.

In the meantime, I'm relieved to hear that your unit finally got some safer HUMVEE's, so you guys will no longer have to dig through trash dumps looking for something to armor your vehicles with.

In the last thread, I made no claim that you are the 278th's public affairs officer. I simply posted information regarding who he is and what he does.

As for that cigar you mentioned, I have a suggestion for you regarding what you can do with it.
But this is a family blog, so I will just let everyone draw their own conclusions.



Comment #22: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/22/05 @ 9:18pm ET...

Bravo Rusty! Well said.
#20 Jay, yes I noticed the page was down too. I'm glad to see it's back online.



Comment #23: Rusty said on 7/22/05 @ 9:31pm ET...

#22 Thanks, Bill.

#12 Good insights, Jay. There are people in the CIA who are furious at the Bush White House. I think Porter Goss was sent to the CIA to purge anyone and everyone who won't be a Bush lackey. Well, we'll see who purges who.

We have good people in the CIA to thank for demanding this investigation into Rove, Libby et al's treason. If these CIA people wouldn't have done that, this would be yet another outrage the Bush White House got away with.



Comment #24: Rusty said on 7/22/05 @ 9:43pm ET...

GOP Candidate Calls for Impeachment
July 21, 2005
By Gordon Dritschilo Herald Staff

"Dennis Morrisseau, 62, of West Pawlet, (Vermont) plans to seek the Republican nomination to run for U.S. House of Representatives.
A central part of his platform, Morrisseau said, will be bringing articles of impeachment against Bush."

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050721/NEWS/507210422/1002/NEWS01



Comment #25: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 3:09am ET...

rus,

I told you about the strange guy that wanted to stay here until 2009. I leave the negative reporting to the news media. The AIF has them around their fingers. Any attack in Baghdad is reported as if the entire country is at war. It's not. 95% of the people want us here. I am on the ground talking to the people. It will take time for all the sunnie to get on the bandwagon. But when they do, I'd hate to be an insurgent in this country. They will be stringing them up faster than Roy Beame.



Comment #26: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 3:31am ET...

The nerve of some people. I'd still like to see his war records.

WASHINGTON — Democratic Sen. John Kerry urged the White House on Friday to release "in their entirety" all documents and memos from Supreme Court nominee John Roberts' (search) tenure in two Republican administrations.

"We cannot do our duty if either Judge Roberts or the Bush administration hides elements of his professional record," said the Massachusetts senator who was his party's presidential candidate last year.



Comment #27: fooj said on 7/23/05 @ 4:17am ET...

Truth is our most powerful weapon.

Peace.



Comment #28: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 4:21am ET...

Iraqis Not Ready to Fight Rebels on Their Own, U.S. Says

By ERIC SCHMITT
Published: July 21, 2005
WASHINGTON, July 20 - "About half of Iraq's new police battalions are still being established and cannot conduct operations, while the other half of the police units and two-thirds of the new army battalions are only 'partially capable' of carrying out counterinsurgency missions, and only with American help, according to a newly declassified Pentagon assessment."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/21/international/middleeast/21military.html?ex=1279598400&en=a7ded191769f385b&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

I have an idea . . . why doesn't the GOP Master Race just bring the ARVN out of retirement to save Iraq? They're tanned, rested, and ready! They haven't fired a shot since 1975 and have several bullets left to fire in the general direction of the North Pole before they run like rabbits.

Or the GOP could have our latest King George hire a bunch of Hessians and ship them over to Iraq, the land of the free and the home of the grave.

Those Hessians are VERY well rested, they haven't fired a shot since 1777. Herr Bush can get Halliburton to slap some $100,000 powdered wigs on them, hand out the muskets, and watch them stop this insurgency in it's tracks.

Since 228-year-old Hessians can be hapless targets just as effectively as the Iraqi bleeping security forces, why hand over billions of dollars to this corrupt Iraqi "government" so they can pocket half of it and snicker at Herr Bush's latest lame speech about "staying the course?"

Why? Why not? These neo-con traitors have gotten us all into a nightmare, and they don't have a clue what to do next except to keep tossing billions of dollars into the bonfire of Iraq, while their trained parrots lie and smear and demonize liberals.

Thank God, a day of reckoning is coming. Truth and justice are not dead, they live on in the hearts of patriots like John Conyers, who understand that political power is a sacred trust, not a partisan weapon to use against anyone and everyone who doesn't have "GOP" tattooed on their forehead.

Say a prayer for America, and take pride in the knowledge that we are taking a stand against the fearsome power of this corrupt GOP dictatorship, and will rip it to shreds, until the only remnant left for posterity is an outhouse in Texas, with a cardboard sign over the door reading: Bush Presidential Library.



Comment #29: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 4:55am ET...

Congressman and all,

I would say there is some very serious precedents being set here. It is time to get lawmakers directly involved and start sweeping out all the corruption.

A very good speech, very apolitical and to the point. Paul Hackett is a great man, and it would serve Ohio best if he gets elected. Ohio has become a cesspool of corruption and disdain, with republicans & democrats both breaking the law everywhere.

There hasn't been an honest election in Blackwells district for years, and new leadership is demanded. I fully hope Howard Dean and others get right behind Hackett as a true conservative.

Then I hope everyone reads this.

""There is a difference between truth and evidence

Do not confuse 'trying to find documents' with trying to find the truth. The answers you seek can be pieced together using "other methods" and "documents outside the White House control." Don't get focused on "whether the White House does or doesn't comply with the document-request. Rather, focus on whether the questions are getting truthful answers and the full story is getting fleshed out.

Share your findings, however innocuous they may seem

One of the things about putting together information, is that something you may think is unimportant could be the vital link. There was one ACLU document I was looking at that had absolutely no information on it. But then I noticed there was some small typing in the corner. The numbers match a single organizational code. This told me that the person who was at that meeting belonged to a certain unit. Small problem: DoD said they never knew about the meeting or the information. But the public release of the document showed us that not only was DoD lying, but they knew about the information in 2002 that they say in 2005 they didn't know about.

The point being is: You never know what gem you might find, especially when working with a huge organization that doesn't communicate well. They're going to make mistakes. Remember, they're the ones trying to cover this up. Your job is to put the mistakes they make into a structure that shows: Even though they're trying to hide their crimes and misconduct, the world can put the pieces together, launch investigations, and bring to the prosecutors reasonable evidence of probable cause for a wider inquiry.

The trick is to know that the pieces are out there and they can be put together. This is like a puzzle. We have all the pieces before us; the trick is to simply choose to organize them in the most reasonable manner that most likely matches reality. It remains up to the White House to justify why we should have confidence in their leadership.

To date, in light of their responses it is clear that there is a reasonable basis to question them; and require far higher burdens of proof before we launch combat operations, commit troops, or allocate scare financial resources. More so when the basis for that action is not only unlawful but contrary to our Constitution.

That's what the Downing Street Memo is all about: The tip of the iceberg about a story that shows the nation has embraced tyranny and pretended it is something else."

Remember the behest of a order of fascists: Their best weapon is fear and to take religion's name in vain: AKA Obsufucation. We can reverse their polarity decisions by letting through with an undying onslaught of pressure, until they cave, by giving way to their own fear.

Never let off the pressure-Not even for a single instant!

http://www.pdamerica.com

What questions are you not answering now president, and why are you afraid to answer them? How many years has PNAC been co-ordinating with Michael Ledeen and everyone else to carry out a plan of destruction? Cheney hasn't been called to the witness stand. Shall we force the VP into the witness chamber, since he seems to be using everyone in WH currently anyway to obstruct justice?

Thoughts from lawyers: Could this be a crime too?

http://constantpated.blogspot.com/2005/07/using-uk-data-to-fill-in-holes-in.html

Doug E.



Comment #30: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 5:36am ET...

CONYERS & ALL: MASSIVE WARNING, POSSIBLY NOT A FALSE ALERT! DICK CHENEY HAS LOST IT; I REPEAT THE VICE PRESIDENT MAY HAVE CRACKED!

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/22/11532/9662

" Justin Logan excerpts an article that's apparently in the print issue of The American Conservative:

The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President Dick Cheney's office , has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons. Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites. Many of the targets are hardened or are deep underground and could not be taken out by conventional weapons, hence the nuclear option. As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States. Several senior Air Force officers involved in the planning are reportedly appalled at the implications of what they are doing--that Iran is being set up for an unprovoked nuclear attack--but no one is prepared to damage his career by posing any objections. "

This is very serious and must be investigated!!!!! The Vice President seems to be suffering from a vast mental disorder, and may be unfit for command!

He is going to order Bush out of the area, allow another terror attack and then proceed to nuke Iran! If he nukes Iran we could be looking at nuclear war! I repeat: PNAC's final plan, which Cheney always said he would follow, is a nuclear attack against Iran & the middle east.

http://newamericancentury.org

Sir it has come to my attention, that we may be forced to assault the VP's office and take him into immediate custody. Along with either shooting or arresting any army officers who are protecting him at the W.H. If we do not seriously investigate the threat and possibly remove him for mental health reasons, Bush and everyone else will pay the price.

TWO ENTIRE COUNTRIES MAY PAY THE PRICE. WE CANNOT WAIT. THIS HAS TO BE DEALT WITH, CAREFULLY.

Doug E.



Comment #31: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 6:05am ET...

Hcocdr: "I leave the negative reporting to the news media."

The news media can't leave the Green Zone without getting their last rites from the nearest priest and reserving a casket home with their VISA cards. That probably tends to influence their reporting somewhat.

Hcocdr: "Any attack in Baghdad is reported as if the entire country is at war. It's not."

No, any attack in Baghdad is reported as an attack in Baghdad.

Hcocdr: "95% of the people want us here. I am on the ground talking to the people."

So you've talked to 95% of the Iraqi people?

Hcocdr: "It will take time for all the sunnie to get on the bandwagon."

It will take time for the Sunnis to unleash civil war. Then the Iraqi Shi'ites will ask their fellow Shi'ites, the Iranians, to intervene, and the 278th won't know whether to fight the Iraqi Sunnis, the Iranian Shi'ites, or the Iraqi Shi'ites.

I have news for you, Hcocdr. 500 million Middle East Muslims don't want American soldiers in the Middle East any more than you'd want Muslim soldiers in Tennessee.

Half a klick, half a klick,
Half a klick onward,
All in the valley of Death
rolled the 278th.
"Forward, the 278th!
Charge the Muslims!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the 278th.

"Forward, the 278th!"
Was there a single man dismay'd?
That he would have his name engraved,
upon another black marble Wall?
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the 278th.

Muslims to the right of them,
Muslims to the left of them,
Muslims in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they fought and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the 278th.

Flash'd their lives before their eyes,
Flash'd because of Bush's lies,
Riddled were the HUMVEES there,
Charging Muslim hordes, while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged into Holy War,
Deafened by the battle's roar;
To be heard from nevermore.

Fighting for democracy,
was not what it was meant to be.
Shatter'd and sunder'd,
they still would not admit that Bush had blundered.

Muslims to the right of them,
Muslims to the left of them,
Muslims behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While HUMVEE burned and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of the 278th.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honor the charge they made,
As into their graves they're laid,
Noble Tennesseans.

Come home soon, 278th. We don't want some future American Tennyson writing about your last stand in Diyala.

The fight for democracy is taking place here in America, not in Iraq.



Comment #32: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:19am ET...

Doug,

You are the one that has lost it. We would be through Iran in like 20 minuets with the first 19 laughing. Iraq fought them to a stand still for 10 years. No nukes needed. We may have a few uneducated nuts blow themselves up near us. The young folks there have access to the internet, cell phones, MTV and Pepsi. They will never give that up for an ayatollah.



Comment #33: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:22am ET...

Besides whe have the Pol's on our side.

Tuesday, July 05, 2005
Polish leader: Iran is gravest threat

An Iranian attempt to develop nuclear weapons would be the greatest threat to peace on earth, the speaker of the Polish parliament and leading presidential candidate said.

"There is no doubt that if the real intention of the Iranian authorities is to reach capability to attain nuclear weapons [then] it would be greatest threat to peace not only in this part of the world... but theoretically it can be the greatest threat to world peace," Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post in his office in the Polish parliament.

The remarks by Cimoszewicz, a former prime minister and minister of foreign affairs who is expected to win this fall's Polish presidential elections, were the clearest signal yet of a growing unease in Europe over Iran's nuclear weapons project.

The US administration has warned for months that it might ask the UN Security Council to impose economic and political sanctions on Iran to halt its nuclear weapons program, but, while acknowledging that such an event might be "unavoidable one day," Cimoszewicz downplayed the significance of what the UN could actually do to stop Iran.

"With all due respect to the UN, there are too many examples of ineffective action by the UN to trust sending the Iranian case to the security council," he said. "We should not overestimate this procedure."

Newly-elected Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has vowed to pursue a peaceful nuclear program, an effort the United States says is really a cover for trying to build atomic bombs.

Amidst rising Israeli and American concern over Iran's nuclear weapons program, the European Union has, over the last year, been seeking a negotiated settlement with Teheran, with some Israeli analysts warning that Iran is simply playing for time.

"We had great expectation [from these talks] but still we cannot be satisfied with the results and I am afraid we cannot be completely sure [what is going on]," Cimoszewicz said, urging the Iranians to allow international monitors into the country to verify what is going on.

"I hope they are rational enough to understand that they have economic interests here involved," he said.

The 54-year-old Cimoszewicz, who, in 1997, was the first Polish prime minister to visit Israel, said that as Israeli-Polish relations flourish, he views the strengthening of strained Polish-Jewish relations as one of the major goals for the future of Poland.

"This is not just about being nice. This is about our joint heritage," he said.

In unusually candid remarks, Cimoszewicz acknowledged that for many Jews even coming to Poland – which was the epicenter of the Nazi extermination of the Jews during the Holocaust – was difficult, but said that in most cases those who do come are happy they have done so.

"Many of us have forgotten how close we used to be for so many centuries. Let us come back to that time," he said.



Comment #34: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:29am ET...

Rus,

Did you just make that up or was it from the Charge of the light brigade. Cute :0)



Comment #35: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 6:35am ET...

Uh no hco, you are the one who has completely lost it.

If we nuke Iran some of the first to die will be the military. Do you enjoy cheerleading your own destruction?

Why in the hell would you cheerlead the starting of a nuclear standoff?

Are you not on the front lines too? I don't think it would be beneficial to ANYONE , let alone the republicans to send everyone off a cliff including themselves.

One of the retaliation targets could be Texas, what kind of KOOL-AID did you put yourself on!???! Those aren't good polls you fool, that means Iran and the M-E hate America ten times more than you hate them!!!

WOW ...

Doug E.



Comment #36: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:41am ET...

You guys don't have a clue whats going on in Iran. I get to see it on the news here one of our turps speeks farci very well.

22 JUL 05
Martial law declared in Mahabad

13 days after the killing of Shivane Qadri, demonstrations are raging on in the city of Mahabad in [northwestern Iran]. Two more Iranian soldiers have been reported killed by demonstrators.

The Iranian government has now declared martial law and curfew in the Kurdish city. Demonstrators who defy the curfew are still protesting on the streets. A clash on July 18 between Kurdish demonstrators and Iranian soldiers has left two soldiers killed.

For the first time after 10 years, the Iranian military is now setting up bases inside the city. Bases have been set up at the Independence Square, who has historically witnessed many popular revolutions, and at Shivane Qadris home district of Pisttep.

Clashes between people and military are increasing and there is no more tranquility in the city, Kurdish news agency MHA's war correspondent Sherko Mehabadi reports. Iranian soldiers have unsuccessfully tried to clamp down on the protesters, leading to tens of protesters and tens of soldiers injured.

Iranian security forces have also cut off the water in the Fergengiyan district and the gas in the Teppey-Qazi district, local sources report. Security forces have until now arrested more than 200 demonstrators and few who have been released report intensive torture of arrested protesters, including themselves.

Iranian soldiers and police are now patrolling the streets in hunt for demonstrators. Groups of more than three are being scattered brutally and during curfew, which starts at 22:00 (10 pm) every evening, groups more than three are being arrested.

Eastern Kurdistan has not felt this tension since the 80's. This has led to the governor of Mahabad threatening the Kurdish people in radio and TV statements saying, "Stop the demonstrations! You don't want the 80's back, I assure you".
Persian news sites have been reporting for days now that cities throughout in the region are under martial law. This a major problem for the regime since it cannot indefinitely sustain large security forces in major cities like Tehran and at the same time in the entire Kurdish region.

If unrest occurs in Tehran or spreads to other areas, such as the Balouch region, the regime will be in a very dangerous predicament.



Comment #37: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 6:45am ET...

hco, you are being fed propaganda and yet continue to forcefeed that propaganda on everyone else.

Are you aware that you are continually cheerleading the very thought of your own demise?

Iran is going to be nuked by Dick Cheney. That is what he is proposing to do. He doesn't care if anyone else agrees, he's just going to fire the button. Bush, Hagel anyone else in the government be damned.

Once Cheney opens the firing trigger, Iran will then nuke us. They could lay waste to an entire state. They could bring a nuclear bomb into south dakota since our WMD tracking unit has been destroyed, and Cheney wouldn't give a crap!

He is ushering in an insane, and criminal end of days precedent and YOU ARE SITTING THERE CHEERING HIM ON !

How the hell do you feel HCOCDR, are you mentally well? If the country is attacked by nuclear weapons, that's it. Everyone will be dying and no one will be winning.

Doug E.



Comment #38: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:51am ET...

We might not even have to fire a shot.

Maybe this will enlighten you.

Ganji: Iran’s Boris Yeltsin
22 JUL 05
Amir Taheri, Arab News:

Just over a month ago Sa’id Mortazavi, the Islamic Revolutionary Prosecutor in Tehran, agreed to receive the wife of one of the many political prisoners languishing in his jails. The visitor wanted Mortazavi to know that her husband, then in the third week of a hunger strike, was nearing death.

The prisoner in question is Akbar Ganji, a 46-yer-old dissident, whose fate is emerging as the latest hot topic in the power struggle within the Khomeinist establishment.

“What is all this fuss about?” Mortazavi reportedly snapped at Ganji’s wife. “Who cares if Ganji dies? Each day many prisoners die in our jails.”

Now however, and as Iran waits for a new administration under President-elect Mahmoud Ahamadinejad, it seems that many people care about Ganji’s fate because “the fuss” about his imprisonment and alleged torture, has been transformed into a debate about the future of the Khomeinist system.

Who is Ganji and what is so special about him?

Since 1979, when the mullas seized power in Tehran, an estimated 2.3 million Iranians have spent some time in prison because of their opposition to the regime. In a sense anybody who is somebody in most walks of life has had some experience of prison in the Islamic Republic. And that includes the Shiite clergy. More mullas have been imprisoned in the past 27 years than members of any other social group in Iran. The revolutionary regime has also executed over 100,000 of its real or imagined opponents and driven a further 4.5 million people into exile, without a second thought.

So, why has Ganji received special attention?

Why is the establishment so afraid of him? READ MORE

When Ganji first began to act as a dissident in 1996 many regarded him with suspicion. After all he had been a member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard for over a decade before joining the Intelligence and Security Service. In that capacity he had even served a stint at the Iranian Embassy in Ankara “keeping an eye” on exiled dissidents.

So are the Khomeinists sore that one of their own has decided to turn against them?

Many Iranians believe this to be the case.

That explanation, however, is not satisfactory. Over the years, countless other Khomeinists have become critics of the regime in one way or another. Most of the “students” who held the American diplomats hostage in Tehran in 1979-80 are now among the loudest critics of the regime.

Many of the intellectuals who collaborated in “cleansing” the universities and purging counterrevolutionary academics, writers and scholars have also distanced themselves from the regime. One of them Abdul-Karim Sorush has even become a critic of clerical intervention in politics. Another, Mustafa Moin, was the candidate of the “reformists” in the recent presidential election.
Ganji’s case is special for a number of reasons.

To begin with. he is almost entirely a child of the Khomeinist revolution in sociopolitical terms. By social background, family history, and political upbringing he should be the model Khomeinist. He has fought for Khomeinism, both in the war against Iraq and in campaigns against dissidents and armed secessionists.

Few in his generation have more revolutionary credentials. Mortazavi, the prosecutor, who specializes in tracing the slightest flaw in his victims’ revolutionary profile has been unable to find any in Ganji’s.

Unlike other in-house critics of the regime, Ganji has succeeded in liberating himself, morally and intellectually, from his Khomeinist illusions.

Moin, for example, pretends that Khomeinism is a pure and beautiful ideal that has been sullied in practice. Ganji, on the other hand, has no doubt that Khomeinism itself is the root cause of all of Iran’s sufferings in the past 27 years.

Moin is like Mikhail Gorbachev, who, even in the final moments when the Soviet Titanic was sinking, was trying to fool himself and others with a vision of “ pure Leninism.” Ganji, however, is like Boris Yeltsin who, although a member of the Soviet Politburo for years, at one point realized that the Bolshevik Revolution had been “ the greatest tragedy in the history of the Russian people,” and said so publicly.

Moin wants to reform a system that is unreformable. Ganji wants a new system that is as distant from the one in place as possible. All this means that while Moin is no threat to the establishment of which he remains a privileged member, Ganji is.
The regime can cope with the “if” and “but” school of criticism. The more shrewd operators of the regime, such as the outgoing President Muhammad Khatami, even encourage this kind of “lite” dissent because it helps foster the illusion that the system can accommodate a measure of debate. That illusion, in turn, could hoodwink some Westerners, including former US President Bill Clinton, into believing that the Khomeinist system is “a kind of democracy.”

When the lawyer Mrs. Shirin Ebadi was nominated as the Nobel Peace laureate for 2004, Khatami welcomed her with the admonition not to “go beyond certain red lines.” Mrs. Ebadi took the advice, and all went well for her. She devoted her acceptance speech to attacking the United States for “abuses of human rights” in Guantanamo Bay, and castigating Israel for “oppressing the Palestinians.”

Knowing her "red lines" she made no mention of the tens of thousands of prisoners, including some of her own friends, rotting in Mortazavi’s jails. But the “most important red line” according to Khatami, concerns the criticism of the “Supreme Guide” or the late Khomeini himself. Ganji, however, has rejected all advice from Khatami. He has insisted that the only red lines must be fixed by law in a democratic system.

Khatami is reportedly trying hard to arrange for Ganji’s release, or at least make sure he stays alive for a few more weeks. This is because the outgoing president does not want his term to end on so tragic a note. But he is asking Ganji to do things that Ganji would never do: Respecting the “red lines” that Moin, Mrs. Ebadi and virtually all other in-house critics of the regime never cross.

Another reason why the regime is so incensed with Ganji is that , unlike other critics inside and outside the system, he cannot be accused of wanting anything for himself. He is not a politician and is not gunning for office. By remaining just a “concerned citizen” he appeals to those Iranians who feel that they, too, have been let down by the system. And because he is not associated with any political group he is respected by all.

But what may have triggered the “fight to the death” between Ganji and the system is his courageous and meticulously researched exposure of the corruption and cruelty at the heart of the regime, especially during the eight-year presidency of Ali-Akbar Hasahemi, the mulla who attempted a comeback but was soundly defeated by Ahamadinejad in last month’s presidential election.

The books that Ganji published on the subject were instantly banned. But they have sold millions inside and outside Iran and remain important documents submitted to the court of history.

Ganji’s voice must not be silenced. Even if we disagree with aspects, as this writer does, or even all of his analyses of Iran’s problems, we must treasure him as a voice that appeals to the conscience of Iranians.

And now let me make a wild prediction: If Ganji stays alive for a couple more weeks he will be released by the new President Ahmadinezhad.

Why do I think that? The answer is simple: By releasing Ganji, Ahamadinejad would send a signal that he means to break with years of misrule by corrupt figures who have led the country into what everyone agrees is its deepest crisis in decades.



Comment #39: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 6:53am ET...

By the way hco aka propaganda :

This is being set to happen before 2006 even gets here, you insane megalomaniac, that's before democrats or anyone else can get back control of this country.

All I think we may have to get a forced impeachment and take them out by force. Bush needs to get the hell out of dodge, have him seek house arrest while the CIA and team of experts go in there and put Cheney down. He's declaring an action of absolute genocide against all advice of the pentagon, homeland security, and mental health professionals.

He is simply very likely imbalanced and unfit, in every rule to hold command. He like Agnew before him, is a corrupt neocon who thinks of nothing but power and military destruction.

Doug E.



Comment #40: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 7:00am ET...

We waive at their tanks every day. The Iranian solders smile and wave back. We give then American cigarettes at the border crossing. A lot of the Iranian people cross into Iraq to sell goods and work jobs here. Nice folks. Intel reports that they have just received a large shipment of white flags from France the other day.



Comment #41: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 7:04am ET...

"before democrats or anyone else can get back control of this country."

Stop doug you are scaring me now!!



Comment #42: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 7:11am ET...

Can't wait to see the Hearings on C-Span. Thank you, once again Rep. Conyers!



Comment #43: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 7:11am ET...

hcocdr, you're wrong about all this.

Freedom will never be on the "march".
PNAC does not give a houseless shit if relations between Iraq, US military, or other industry is "good".

PNAC has a few former nazis in it including Henry Kissinger.

Plain and simple, Dick Cheney intends to nuke Iran if there is another terrorist attack. He does not give a shit what you and the rest think. He's going to pull the firing trigger, and that terrorist attack could even be ordered by his minions and the Al-Quaeda network because they want it.

PNAC wants control of all of Iran, and their decisions are not going to change just because the Pentagon or some official says so. They own the Pentagon, and could choose to disband the Pentagon. PNAC wants to setup complete Halliburton control of Iran and weapons munitions, bases, all "assets". It's in their plan.

And frankly nobody has time to wait and see. Cheney is a criminal who is cornered, has been involved in destroying an entire CIA apparatus and has enemies everywhere. He is intent on nuking Iran and the General in charge of STRATCOM has already indicated it in writing. In the most conservative magazine to boot.

Bottom line and to the point: IRAN is going to be attacked with Nukes, and the world is in serious shit if this neocon isn't stopped!

Doug E.



Comment #44: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 7:21am ET...

Good morning all patriots!

Congressman Conyers,

Excellent hearing! I watched it twice with friends and family after first recording.

Yes. This is a very grave and serious matter and the ripple effect is quite extensive. I think most telling was the fact that this is not a partisan issue; our troops as well as our CIA and citizens are not republican or democrat they are Americans and there has been a security breach that cuts across all party lines and threatens National Security as well as the lives of those serving abroad doing their job to protect us all.

Another comment I felt was relevant was the 'childish' tone of the GOP and the White House political games. Ignorance is no excuse for the law; they knew exactly what they were doing based upon their security clearances and non-discloure statues. Their behavior is disgusting and worrisome. Who's the adult in charge?

Keep up the good work and stand steadfast --- I'm so proud of you and grateful for the service of everyone at the hearing. True courage and patriots one and all!

==================================

Did you happen to see this? It's definately more than just your typical Friday news dump!

July 22nd, 2005 6:13 pm
Bush Administration Files 11th Hour Papers Blocking the Release of Darby CD Photos and Video Of Abu Ghraib Torture

Center for Constitutional Rights

On July 22, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) denounced the latest efforts of the Bush Administration to block the release of the Darby photos and videos depicting torture at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison facility. On June 2, 2004, CCR, along with the ACLU, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense, and Veterans for Peace filed papers with the U.S. District Court, charging the Department of Defense and other government agencies with illegally withholding records concerning the abuse of detainees in American military custody. Since then, the organizations have been repeatedly rebuffed in their efforts to investigate what happened at the prison.

In June, the government requested and received an extension from the judge stating that they needed time in order to redact the faces of the men, women and children believed to be shown in the photographs and videos. They were given until today to produce the images, but at the eleventh hour filed a motion to oppose the release of the photos and videos, based on an entirely new argument: they are now requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals. Today’s move is the latest in a series of attempts by the government to keep the images from being made public and to cover up the torture of detainees in U.S. custody around the world.

Joseph Darby was the U.S reservist who turned over the photos and videos to U.S. Army officials and touched off the Abu Ghraib scandal in April 2004.

“This is absolutely unacceptable,” stated Michael Ratner, President of the Center for Constitutional Rights. “We can not move forward from this scandal until we have a full public accounting and independent investigation into what happened at Abu Ghraib. The government cannot continue to hide evidence of torture. The time to release these photos and videos was a long time ago.”

Expectations are that the FOIA request will release more than 100 photos and 4 videos, all believed to document deplorable human rights violations by U.S. military personnel against Iraqi civilians.

Barbara Olshansky, Deputy Legal Director of the Center for Constitutional Rights, stated, “The public must be informed of what is being done in our name. It is this Administration that has put our troops at risk and caused world-wide anger by fostering policies that promote torture and refusing to hold those responsible publicly accountable.”

The Center for Constitutional Rights once more calls for a complete, transparent independent investigation into the torture and abuse of detainees that goes all the way up the chain of command and demands that the Administration apply the Geneva Conventions to every detainee being held in U.S. custody around the world.

This is part of the request under the Freedom of Information Act filed by the the Center for Constitutional Rights, the ACLU, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C.

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=imOUU2rj8m&Content=608



Comment #45: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 7:21am ET...

Wait, this just in. Could French President Jacques Chiraq finaly see his numbers slipping. Well there you have it the Franch are now onboard. This should make you guys and John Kerry happy.

http://www.iranfreedomfoundation.org/default.php?page_id=689

Daily Iran Briefing - July 22, 2005

After two years of difficult investigations and increased suspicions over Iran’s nuclear activities, the EU is beginning to show signs of frustration with the Iranian administration which insists on pursuing its nuclear ambitions. The German, French and British governments have agreed to offer Iran a “global package” in the first week of August, but details have not yet been revealed about the “generous, interesting and important” nature of the package.

Iran’s top officials have each taken their turn to denounce both US interference in the nuclear issue and EU’s opposition to Tehran’s resumption of uranium enrichment. Iran’s president-elect said Thursday his country would not succumb to international pressure to abandon its nuclear program. “Just as we hate weapons of mass destruction, we hate that some want to deprive other people from the right to peacefully use nuclear energy.” Iran, however, has failed dismally to convince skeptics that it is only interested in the peaceful use of nuclear energy. Iran predicts that the Iran-EU talks will be “tough” and “fragile.”



French President Jacques Chiraq said today that he could not predict the results of ongoing talks but warned Tehran that if it does not dispel Europe and America’s fear of nuclear proliferation, Iran will be referred to the UN Security Council, which has the authority to impose sanctions or an oil embargo on Iran. In support of such actions, Israel said today that “Iran becoming a nuclear power cannot be tolerated” and that the most effective way of dealing with dilemma is to impose immediate economic sanctions on the Iran before referring it to the UN.



Iran’s defiance, threats and bitter remarks have undermined the attempts by France, Germany and Britain, pursuing a diplomatic approach toward Iran and its nuclear activities. Tension is escalating between Iran and the EU-3 as Britain two days ago condemned Iran for accusing the British government of orchestrating the London bombings, and German Minister of Interior Otto Schily yesterday questioned Iran’s president-elect Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s suspicious past with respect to the hostage crisis in Tehran in 1979.



Expediency Council Chairman Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani seized the birth anniversary Hazrat Zahra, Prophet Mohammad’s daughter today at a Friday prayer to promote Iran’s right to nuclear technology for so-called peaceful purposes. “We should adopt a very precise strategy to eliminate the possibility of violation of this legitimate right for Iranian nation,” he said. He also hailed Iranian women for being the most privileged in Islam and dismissed any suggestions that they are repressed or discriminated against.



The mullahs are using Friday prayers and the media to spread their propagandist material. Addressing a crowd of worshippers today Guardian Council spokesman Gholam Hussein Ilham said that the Guardian Council has kept the revolution alive for 26 years and protected Iran from the US. While many top officials deny charges that the country’s social, economic, and political situation is lamentable, evidence points toward the contrary. Reports have revealed that businessmen and academics are fleeing Iran in search of a better future abroad and that other social grievances are poverty, unemployment, prostitution and widespread drug addiction. The mullahs have ignored these social maladies for 26 years and in some cases actually perpetuated the vicious cycle.



Damascus has confirmed the Syrian president’s trip to Tehran on Saturday July 23. Syria and Iran have developed strong ties with one another during the eight-year Iran-Iraq war when Syria sided with Iran. Today their interests are deeply intertwined with Syria depending on Iran for oil and Iran’s mullahs relying on Syria for protection of their wealth having stashed in considerable funds in Syrian banks. Both countries are considered by the US state sponsors of terrorism and grave threats to the security and stability of the Middle East. Syria and Iran will explore ways of supporting Hezbollah and Iraq and address the Lebanese issue.



Comment #46: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 7:21am ET...

Good news in South Carolina !

Democrats win seats in South Carolina, in spite of GOP dirty tricks !

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/006660.html#more

"Colleen stood her ground, and when the Post & Courier asked about her DFA-List endorsement, she made it clear that she was "proud to receive DFA's endorsement, because they support grassroots campaigns and candidates that are fiscally responsible." During the last week, the South Carolina GOP sent out several e-mails to their supporters throughout the state encouraging them to travel to Charleston to counter the "radical liberal Deaniacs who would be screaming their way to Charleston" the weekend before the election. Clearly, the Republicans were concerned. "

Its a done deal. Voting machines be damned, they're going to be taken off the pack!

Not because of any other reason than we have to take this country back by force, Iran, the USA and more is in danger.

By the way the column on TPMCafe has been erased! I can't believe they are covering up the stories this fast, unbelievable.

Doug E.



Comment #47: scotty d said on 7/23/05 @ 7:25am ET...

hcocdr- i have been trying to stay quiet and just read, but you just don't get it. as rusty said before. you have talked to 95% of the iraqis? you think we would be thru iran in 20 minutes? you guys are having a hard time keeping alive with a country the size of california, with an insurgency that has no national funding for it, no direct source of ammunition, no headquarters, and barely any technology. all the neo-cons thought that we would be in and out of iraq with people kissing the americans feet and flowers in their gun barrels. do you remember that tired line? do you really think that iran is afraid of the u.s. now that we are stretched to the breaking point as your generals have pointed out? now that we are having a difficult recruiting for this war, you want a 42 year old couch potato protecting your ass?
they are doing everything possible not to have a draft. fighting iran would change that. do you think the american people would allow this administration to take us in to another conflict without concrete evidence? do you think the american people would trust any assesment of the intellegence community after they got it"all wrong" in the iraq fiasc? get a grip on reality.
iran is not afraid of the united states, you need to read the terahn time and see what these people are saying about the u.s..
what you said about iran is just plain ignorant. you are very not very well informed. you are a soldier, not a stratigist of drawing up national security plans.

you say they the irainians would never give up their pepsi for their leaders. young iranians would give their lives to kill the american occupiers. don't kid yourself. talk about drinking the kool aid. who told you that lie.

you site one article and say we don't have a clue about what is going on in iran. you have no idea of their culture their, their attitudes, their motivation. their zeal toward religion. america and american culture doe not fit into their idea of a perfect iran, get a clue.
didn't our president say not to long ago that the new president in iran was one of the captors who held americans hostage back in the 80's? so what do you think he feels towards america.
you keep saying that we are against this war. the people who are on this web site, are the people who demanded that our government give you the armor for your humvees, the body armor you needed to protect yourselves. we the people of this web site, petitioned our governmnet to fund the VA fully, so that God forbid you get wounded you don't have to pay for your meals, your meds, your beds. we are the ones who are holding our elected officials feet to the fire to make sure you have everything you need. we are the ones trying to make sure that more of our young boys and girls don't die for another one of g.w.b.'s follies, especially in iran.
did you know that the iraqi governmnet is working with the iranian governmnet, right now on many fronts once we start to withdraw, including oil piplines security, training their military men. helping them frame their constitution? there is a very good chance that the iranian soldiers will be the ones taking your place when you leave. how do you feel about that? they will have a larger influence on what iraq does in the future that what american the occupier wants them to do.



Comment #48: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 7:29am ET...

Commander,

Why don't you quit with the bs and tell these good people here all about Codname: Conplan 8022 or PTech and PROMIS?

I was right from the beginning about you... you obviously have a death wish. Be careful what you wish for.

Think again if this administration gives a damn about your security? You are expendable collateral damage in this neocon fantasy.



Comment #49: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 7:34am ET...

I wanted to let people know about some of the Yahoo and Google groups that allow much longer comments and posting of articles and are somewhat harder-hitting than a family oriented site like a Member of Congress must have.

My political group is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/StopTheNewWorldOrder/

And I have flyers that you can download in the FILES and PHOTOS sections you can click on the left.

Yahoo is very generous with space it allows group moderators.

Other hard hitting groups that people may want to post longer views on are:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bush_Sucks_A_S_S_on_Terrorism/?yguid=187313086

~~~

George Bush is a suck a_s_s president when it comes to fighting terrorism. Bush has always taken slow indecisive action to fight real terrorists… and your butts are less safe because of it. Don’t be fooled by Flip Flop O’Really and his crony Ann Coulter. Dividing the country now with lies will only help the real “terrorists.” Osama Bin Laden and the dictators of the world are happy to see Bush win a second term. Dictators have already endorsed Bush!

Think back, you saw how fast Bush read “My Pet Goat,” and the rest of the world sees bush's lack of accomplishments, even if you can't. You lived through the effects of terror. Many were near enough to the Pentagon when the plane hit that it felt like an earthquake to them. I never ever want to see some a_s_s hole read “My Pet Goat” again while the nation is “under attack.”

I feel deep in my heart that anyone could have done a better job than Bush. How can mere words of a man who perjured himself and those holding flip flop records counter actual great deeds of people like Sen.Ted Kennedy and Howard Dean? The fight against terrorism is not over and we must never forget what happened and never let it happen again. Bush definitely was and is the wrong man for the job.



Comment #50: scotty d said on 7/23/05 @ 7:36am ET...

hcocdr-
does it look like the insurgency is in its final throes like cheney said last month? you guys must be packing your stuff right now.



Comment #51: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 7:39am ET...

Bush has been used.

Don't you folks get it? Once Bush confirms the last authorization to let Cheney's policy bill pass through, they won't need Bush anymore to legalize the oil pipelines all the way across europe.

PNAC is going to get rid of Bush, and they could even kill him later because he was of no use. He was too stupid and religious to get their ultimate plan in action.

This is how mafia empires work, they turn on the little guys. Bush was used as a Tony Soprano goto guy, he was The Fourth Reich's Nute Gunray.

Now Cheney and the rest of PNAC will pull off all the gloves. Read this, Bolton has been implicated in the leak.

"SCOOP: John Bolton Was Regular Source for Judith Miller WMD and National Security Reporting

TWN has just learned from a highly placed source — and in the right place to know — that John Bolton was a regular source for Judith Miller’s New York Times WMD and national security reports.

The source did not have any knowledge on whether Bolton was one of Miller’s sources on the Valerie Plame story she was preparing, but argues that he was a regular source otherwise.

It’s all “thickening.”"
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/000797.html

Bolton brought down the intercepts, gave them to Miller. Talked to Cheney, then Bolton handed it over to Libby for confirmation. A conspiracy by the heads of PNAC and do you not see it?

Cheney WANTS to nuke freaking Iran!!!!! He is setting it up to get the opposition out of the way, Diebold or no Diebold, he will get his plans!!!!

Doug E.



Comment #52: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 7:43am ET...

Sandra-

People have to finally stand up when the crimes of government become unbearable. Read about THE RESISTANCE to Hitler in Germany and many European countries - A NUN'S STORY and THE CORSICAN WOMAN are very good novels and their are many non-fiction works from these very brave people.

I am also concerned about the Promis, Inislaw deaths and others but Rep. Conyers is trying to focus on the things that can realistically be addressed now.

I think it is important for people to know about these things and link to articles and write about them and that is why I am posting some of the groups that will allow you and others to do so.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Recall_Bush/

The Republican Party is a Disgrace To Our U.S. Veterans !!!

Time and again The Lousy Republicans have blocked Health Care for Veterans.

The Armed Services should Unionize and go on strike for National Health Care.

The Republicans that claim to be so Religious are anything but Christian.

Jesus would have provided Health Care for all as Health Care was always meant to be.

Howard Scott Pearlman

@@@ Please join us at .....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PutAnEndToWar/

http://electionfraudandchristianity.blogspot.com/

No-War-Iraq-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

ImpeachArnold2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



Comment #53: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 7:47am ET...

Comment #52: LenaDavid
Thanks --- I've been around for quite a while and have had my full; but it never hurts to repost these important links.



Comment #54: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 7:55am ET...

Everyone, please read this transcription.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=293807275#Post293807275

It was taken from the American Conservative national magazine.

Other news sources have reported it, but the links are being removed fast by someone who doesn't want this coming out.

Doug E.



Comment #55: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 7:56am ET...

Guys,

I to thought the way you do when you have never met the people, or attempted to understand their way of thinking. We did it to the blacks and Native Americans in the US and you have the preconceived notion that all Arabs are evil, they want to cut your heads off. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are good family people that work hard every day. I have seen people here take a shovel and channel water miles to their fields to water their crop. They have the same emotions as we do. They are afraid of the unknown. What will become of their way of life? Like then we to are afraid of change. How you guys are not looking into a better future for the middle east and the people here, thereby making this a better world foe everyone, you are not deserving of your liberal label. Where are the human shields now for the people of Iraq? You guys were so intent on stopping the US from bombing hospitals and schools. Why are you so absent when the AIF are doing it? I’ll tell you, it’s because in the back of your minds you know that the US will not target Schools or Hospitals and the AIF will and not care who’s there.

You sit behind your computers pecking away thinking you are doing some great deed for the world. If you really want to do something, join an NGO or something, come here and help, then you will see for yourself what I mean. Don’t worry we won’t let the boogy man get you. Who stopped the troops at Abu Gerayi it was another troop.



Comment #56: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 8:02am ET...

hcocdr,

Sir, you are now touting the line of thinking which is not shared by your right-wing patriot friends. They believe under all recourse, that all muslim arabs are evil and a serious doom is coming.

You could be stripped from your rank soldier, for now going against the conservative viewpoint towards liberal. You could be strung up for changing your mind.

Protect yourself carefully, because the leadership of PNAC would like to use you as a bulletshield. They do not give a shit what its rank and file says, and they are intent on nuking Iran.

Remember it is only their law that matters, and they will soon be taking out Iran in order to get its Oil. IRAN hates the USA with a profound blight that nothing can stop, and Mr. Dick Cheney has ensured its passage.

Doug E.



Comment #57: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:02am ET...

You're mistaken Commander -- we had nothing against them.

You've just posted the views of PNAC and Henry Kissenger...

“Oil is much too important a commodity to be left in the hands of the Arabs.” -- Henry Kissinger

And regarding torture... it was your commander in chief that set the tone on this and your own fellow soldiers that reported it.

Get a clue.



Comment #58: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:10am ET...

Commander --- Just in case you were not aware. There has been a substantial amount of money that has either gone missing or was misappropriated. These funds were supposed to be used for Iraq's reconstruction. It would have made your difficult job much easier if these funds had been used appropriately for Iraq's infrastructure repairs, hospitals, schools, jobs, etc.

Instead, this Pentagon has diverted the funds in a most sinister way.



Comment #59: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 8:14am ET...

All must continually remember this point;
"
And frankly nobody has time to wait and see. Cheney is a criminal who is cornered, has been involved in destroying an entire CIA apparatus and has enemies everywhere. He is intent on nuking Iran and the General in charge of STRATCOM has already indicated it in writing. In the most conservative magazine to boot. "

Like Europe says, Cheney must be removed almost immediately. We can not wait or be complacent, he and those including Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz & Harold Rhode intend to cast nukes at Iran then Syria. They are setting up a holocaust which could destroy everyone who has no stake in these wars, millions could be vanquished.

A cornered biting rat and it has to be neutrelized. Remember this in every DSM meeting. Forget the lesser threats, remove the guillotine guy and then go after Osama. *Bush can go off to some undisclosed location to avoid getting assassinated by his former partners. It's Mr. Darth Sidious we have to take care of...

Doug E.



Comment #60: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:17am ET...

Commander,
In case no one has said this to you... I'm sorry you have been lied to and used.

We did everything we could to try and prevent this situation you currently find yourself in. Unfortunately, the people are powerless in stopping this administration.

On behalf of all Americans, I think it's safe to say that we greatly support your efforts and worry about you each and every day.

I fear for your safety and pray that you will prevail.



Comment #61: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 8:20am ET...

Note this problem

Dick Cheney and Douglas Feith are traitors to the United States of America, have engaged in multiple illegal activities destroying the United States security , have lied to a Federal Grand Jury on at least one occasion and have painted all evidence against them as political.
http://newamericancentury.org
These dangerous men have also used Bush and his capital completely up, and conspired to force Karl Rove to become a traitor as well

Have you seen these dangerous men today? Are they on the MOST WANTED LIST OF WORLD HITS yet? The amount of sickening damage, could enforce CIA agents to even want to kill one of these men. We have a problem don't we?

Doug E.



Comment #62: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 8:25am ET...

#54: Doug is correct, many links are being removed in succession (particularly on this topic).

Check-out this British site:
War Without End



Comment #63: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 8:26am ET...

One way everyone can help with world hunger is to go to www.thehungersite.com

and click for free food for the hungry. You don't have to sign in, give your name and I try to click on the hunger site every time I go online.

I believe you Doug and will look up the sites you listed. People have been expecting Bush/Cheney to declare war on Iran for a long time and I have read about the build up of the troops on the Iranian border.

Someone wrote months ago that if the Bush Regime tries to declare war on Iran that it will be like Hitler who was given 2 free countries but essentially the world declared war on Hitler when he took the third country Poland.

The Bush Regime has already had it's two countries Iraq and Afghanistan and if they try to do nuclear strikes on Iran, God help us all, Americans will not be immune from nuclear attack from one of the many countries who also have nuclear weapons.

There was a site, don't have the URL right now, that showed the terrain of Iran which is much more difficult for US soldiers because of the mountains and caves and if Iran does have nuclear facilities they would be buried deep within the deep mountains and even bunker busting bombs could not reach Iran's nuclear weapons.

After what the Bush Crime Family has done in South and Central America - I believe Bush,Sr. and Kissenger are on the International War Crimes list. Kissenger barely made it out of his Paris hotel when French police came to question him about his war crimes. Now we are committing the same horrors that the bad part of the Bush owned CIA did using the School of the Americas school for torture and these things have been done to Americans and Canadians for decades.

Read the 1977 Senate Hearings on MK-ULTRA and The Greenbaum Speech given by Dr. Hammond on several sites about brainwashing, human experimentation using the techniques of the Nazis who were brought into this country in Prescott Bush's ratline in Operation Paperclip.

Look up FISA about using Americans as slave labor. Prescott Bush made a fortune on the Aushwitz mining slaves and the ones who survived and their families sued the Bush family for reparations when secret documents were released a decade ago but the billionnaire bushes were able to buy enough legal power to keep their blood money.

I hope that Cheney and Bush are arrested soon. Nelson Mandela stated that the biggest threat to peace at this point in history is America, i.e. The Bush Regime.



Comment #64: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 8:32am ET...

Cheney is the top dog , report has been being supressed for a month.

A war without end:

http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=38408

We can not let Cheney do this, the American conservative is reporting its already in the bag. Even if there has to be a forced arrest soon Cheney can not be allowed to enact PNAC's plan!

Doug E.



Comment #65: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:35am ET...

The build up has been taking place for quite some time.

Israel has been supplied very well and the plans have been in the works for a long time. Now, it's just a matter of timing the first strike.

The enemy is behind the gates and sits in the basement of the White House controlling all actions.

He needs to be taken out now and if he won't go willingly then it must be by force or covert action.



Comment #66: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 8:36am ET...

Here's a comprehensive, broad-view analysis of the neocons/likudnik goals in the middle-east.


The future of the global War on Terror: Next stop, Iran

By DR. STEPHEN J. SNIEGOSKI



Comment #67: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:40am ET...

CODENAME: CONPLAN 8022

Not Just A Last Resort?
A Global Strike Plan, With a Nuclear Option

By William Arkin

Sunday, May 15, 2005; Page B01

Early last summer, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld approved a top secret "Interim Global Strike Alert Order" directing the military to assume and maintain readiness to attack hostile countries that are developing weapons of mass destruction, specifically Iran and North Korea.

Two months later, Lt. Gen. Bruce Carlson, commander of the 8th Air Force, told a reporter that his fleet of B-2 and B-52 bombers had changed its way of operating so that it could be ready to carry out such missions. "We're now at the point where we are essentially on alert," Carlson said in an interview with the Shreveport (La.) Times. "We have the capacity to plan and execute global strikes." Carlson said his forces were the U.S. Strategic Command's "focal point for global strike" and could execute an attack "in half a day or less."

In the secret world of military planning, global strike has become the term of art to describe a specific preemptive attack. When military officials refer to global strike, they stress its conventional elements. Surprisingly, however, global strike also includes a nuclear option, which runs counter to traditional U.S. notions about the defensive role of nuclear weapons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051400071.html



Comment #68: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 8:46am ET...

Sandra, I liked you message to the Commander. I also feel bad that he, the other soldiers and the American people have been lied to and endangered by Bush and company.

I have signed many petitions and written to Congress about providing armor and armored Humvees for the troops. I was particularly incensed that Republican Chris Smith who was fighting hard for Veterans' needs was taken off the Committee and replaced by a NeoCon who does care.

There was also a Bush person, Mr. Chu going around the country stating that if the stingy promises to soldiers of 2 years of medical care was kept, it would endanger the security of Americans. After the billions given to and lost by Halliburton Brown and Root.

Congress.org which had many letters by people against the war, asking why Bush hates the troops in refusing to honor the promises of medical care and housing and other needs for wounded vets and their families. Veterans for Peace has many good articles by vets and activist things you can do to help our soldiers who have been shamefully used by the Regime.

There was a petition HANDS OFF IRAN a few months ago and there may be a site with that name.

One reason I posted the Yahoo sites is that if this information is being deleted that quickly, you can cut and paste long articles into your WORD PAD on the START MENU at the left of your computer on the bottom and then transfer the information to one of the many, many Yahoo or Blogsites.

It would be hard for whoever is deleting this material to keep up with it being posted either most of it or in its entirety on many groops. Google has a number of Impeach Bush type sites also.

ConvictLimburger-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
FighttheDraftCalifornia_N_Cascadia-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Grassroots-CA-OH-FL-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Grassroots-KS-MO-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

People-v-NewMexico-n-Nevada-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
recall-arnold3-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Remember-RKO-General-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SeccessionNow-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



Comment #69: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 8:47am ET...

Not good news..... We are running out of time!!!!

Right as soon as the prosecution begins handing down indictments to Cheney, or before we can pull him into court, the man is going to authorize a nuclear bomb being dropped on IRAN.

Not only could it lead to the death of millions, it could also ruin the world, and create Cheney into the worst martyr anyone's ever seen since Joseph Stalin.

Hell hath no fury like a cornered, fierce, repressive Nazi....The guy doesn't even have a heart anymore, one day we could wake up and everyone there is assassinated besides the neocons and Cheney just happened to be "out of town"

There is no end to what he will do, and provoke against his enemies.

Doug E.



Comment #70: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:50am ET...

CONPLAN 8022 is different from other war plans in that it posits a small-scale operation and no "boots on the ground." The typical war plan encompasses an amalgam of forces -- air, ground, sea -- and takes into account the logistics and political dimensions needed to sustain those forces in protracted operations. All these elements generally require significant lead time to be effective. (Existing Pentagon war plans, developed for specific regions or "theaters," are essentially defensive responses to invasions or attacks. The global strike plan is offensive, triggered by the perception of an imminent threat and carried out by presidential order.)

CONPLAN 8022 anticipates two different scenarios. The first is a response to a specific and imminent nuclear threat, say in North Korea. A quick-reaction, highly choreographed strike would combine pinpoint bombing with electronic warfare and cyberattacks to disable a North Korean response, with commandos operating deep in enemy territory, perhaps even to take possession of the nuclear device.

The second scenario involves a more generic attack on an adversary's WMD infrastructure. Assume, for argument's sake, that Iran announces it is mounting a crash program to build a nuclear weapon. A multidimensional bombing (kinetic) and cyberwarfare (non-kinetic) attack might seek to destroy Iran's program, and special forces would be deployed to disable or isolate underground facilities.

By employing all of the tricks in the U.S. arsenal to immobilize an enemy country -- turning off the electricity, jamming and spoofing radars and communications, penetrating computer networks and garbling electronic commands -- global strike magnifies the impact of bombing by eliminating the need to physically destroy targets that have been disabled by other means.

The inclusion, therefore, of a nuclear weapons option in CONPLAN 8022 -- a specially configured earth-penetrating bomb to destroy deeply buried facilities, if any exist -- is particularly disconcerting. The global strike plan holds the nuclear option in reserve if intelligence suggests an "imminent" launch of an enemy nuclear strike on the United States or if there is a need to destroy hard-to-reach targets.



Comment #71: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 8:52am ET...

Comment #68: LenaDavid
Thank you... carry on!



Comment #72: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 8:56am ET...

Do you think John Kerry, Chuck Hagel or anyone else even REALIZE whats at stake here?

Do you think they are even contemplating that less from six months from now, could be the start of NUCLEAR WINTER?

Do they realize any of this? Do they understand that Cheney has gone completely insane? Do they know PNAC is totally out of its mind?

Do they have any clue that every day Bush stands up at a speech, he is spouting the bullshit of PNAC? That he gets paid to say that? That they either bribe him or hold a gun to his neck on some days?

Do they realize that man is being blackmailed to say whatever the hell PNAC wants it to say?

Do they KNOW what the office of special plans, under Cheney does? Any recollection for any of them, that there is a plan for more than seven nukes?

My god, I just wonder if our government is even informed at all anymore!!!
Doug E.



Comment #73: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:01am ET...

You can bet that China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and others know exactly what's going on.

They're in posturing mode and have been anticipating the mental meltdown of Cheney etal for some time.

This is very serious folks. It appears that the only ones uninformed of the situation and the severity are the GOP talking heads.

This is not partisan; nobody wins in all out nuclear war.



Comment #74: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 9:02am ET...

I meant to type that Republican Chris Smith who fought for veterans benefits was replaced by a NEOCON who did NOT care. Don't remember his replacement's name now but wrote to a number of Congressmen including those on the Armed Forces Committee about why Chris Smith was "fired" for doing his job in advocating for our troops.
~~~~~~~~~

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index776.htm

There are many of us who think they are losing it... Remember the Clinton scandals were covered non-stop... Now, we get a girl in Aruba non-stop with the DSM, Plamegate, etc going on and not a word. Everything is out of context... the above website has some other interesting goings on behind the scenes that no one is mentioning...

The main website is also interesting.

~~~~Chill-out ----, don't get your wife upset... you love her more than Bush ever will, so if you want to feel like you are getting something done, go to Four Reasons... it has so many petition links it will give you a sense of empowerment and calmness(I sound like Oprah) and your wife will have a sense of ease about your well-being(now I sound like
Dr. Phil) . So find your petitions and sign and sleep well:

http://www.thefourreasons.org/

~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments on first London bombings:

~~~ I was watching the news early this morning on CNN when they broke in with the report that an explosion (one) had taken place in london. Within a short period of time, they were reporting SIX explosions. later, that had changed to FOUR explosions. later, it was reported that two additional bombs had been found planted, but did not detonate.

So:

six bombs were EXPECTED to go off, four went off,two were duds. How did the media know that there should have been six?

~~~Apparently CNN's resident CIA babysitter (of course most people reading this are aware that intel "supervision" of all major broadcast media outlets has been in place throughout the Bush admin.)got a little free and loose with the details.

How VERY interesting. I wonder if anyone has this on tape?



Comment #75: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 9:07am ET...

Sandra,

I bet you the CIA has it on tape....Of those planted reporters saying it. This could turn into the largest CIA war we've ever seen, just to stop the nukes from going off.

I'm serious, we may need to march in there and grab that bastard Cheney ourselves. He is going to go all out this time to defy the rule of law....

Even if it happens the voting machine is defeated and seats are given back in more than 40 places, democrats take seats, the rest of the nation gets back on track he will NOT leave by option.

Too much at stake.....Too many trials in the Hague. In fact Cheney doesn't even plan to wait until after 2006 anyway, do you see how scared he is of losing?

The guy is going to enact a nuclear bomb before 2005 is even over, and that is if PNAC isn't stopped. WHERE IS OUR CONTINGENT OF SPECIAL COUNSELS SITTING RIGHT NOW?

Doug E.



Comment #76: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:08am ET...

Doug,

Yes, they know. Last week I watched a Senate debate on the neocon power grab for more nukes and deeper penetration. The Senators know the score -- Kerry, Biden, Kennedy, Rockefeller, Feinstein, Dorgan, Feingold, and many others issued a stark wake-up.



Comment #77: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 9:11am ET...

Doug, Sandra and all:

Now maybe the appropriate time to take another look at one of the most controversial book of this century, and possibly of all humankind:
The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion

"A coincidence is a scientific anomaly" - Gil Grissom, CSI



Comment #78: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:12am ET...

Doug,
The Senate Intelligence Committee has the damage assessment from the CIA.

It is estimated that up to 90 or more people have been executed that were associated with the Plame Affair.

Cheney will have to be taken by force... note that the Secret Service once under the Treasury Dept. during 9/11 is now under Homeland Security.

And, frankly --- this is now a Homeland Security issue.



Comment #79: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 9:17am ET...

I'm prepared to do my duty and march into the White House gates, even carrying arms if needed and a vest to take down the vile scum.

The question is just WHEN, if our leaders are finally informed then when is the breaking point?

WE can't let them have any room much longer, not with the public, long since asleep, waking up.

The consequences are far too grave and serious.....PNAC must be stopped at all costs and we have to stop them with absolute prejudice.

What about the army? Are they aware this nutcase could NUKE the entire Pentagon? Do they have bunkers to go to? Do they understand the problems of Feith, Cheney and the AIPAC team having full access to the nuclear weapons button?

And what about the NAVY? Are they aware of the imminent threat from terrorism enacted by the VP office? Do they know Libby is out there getting people killed mafia style right now? Can't have that many witnesses! Not when there is a federal court involved....

Doug E.



Comment #80: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:25am ET...

Doug,

The Pentagon has forced fed all branches of service to prepare them to attack and continue to feed them propaganda proclaiming 'actionable' assault to bring about such a war.

The troops have no idea that they are being lied to... they are only told that due to a 'threat' on the United States they must protect and defend.

Through Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld etal, they have funded and fortified hardened bunkers for their (neocon) survival only --- government installations.

People/troops are not included and are therefore exposed.



Comment #81: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:28am ET...

I will also state here; they must be taken out from within.



Comment #82: LenaDavid said on 7/23/05 @ 9:28am ET...

Sandra - Thank you for the specifics on CONPLAN 8022. It is really scary. I did not know the details but people on SmirkingChimp.com and Democratic Underground have talked about the Bush Regime having a plan where troops would not be needed and the plans to attack Iran for months.

Many people also know that Bush is a pawn but he, as legally the President of the US, is the one giving the power to Cheney and the PNAC and I am unsure of Bilderberg stance. I have read that many are against attacking Iran or any more countries.

I have read that the Oligarchy - Bilderbergers (as well as the CIA, FBI and Pentagon)have been in Civil War mode over the suicidal plans of the Bush Regime.

A CloakandDagger.de reporter was roughed up by the police and charged with possessing a small amount of marijuana after he reported the Civil War mode of the Oligarchy.

He was fired from CloakandDagger.de and can no longer find the separate article on this reporter who was from a prominent family so it was surprising the police (I think Cloak and Dagger is broadcast from Canada) would treat him so badly.

He stated that he had hit the glass ceiling of what was allowed to be reported even on left wing sites.

The Yahoo and other groups that I listed despite their names have become basically Impeach Bush and Anti-war sites according to the posts found there.

The International Tribunal on Iraq had a pdf file of 10 pages titled HOW WE CAN HELP AMERICA PREVENT MORE BUSH WAR CRIMES.

I think the International community including Europe has been aware of the need to act against this rogue Regime and I pray they will act soon and be successful with a minimum of damage to all concerned.

France has nuclear weapons as does
NATO. Will they allow the Bush Regime to get away with this CONPLAN 8022 horror? If it was reported in the Washington Post in May - the world's Intelligence communities must have know about it for quite a while.

Seems like spiritual sites might be the best now. I am a non-fundamentalist Christian but some of the peaceful philosophies of the Far East like Tai Chi spirituality are helpful. As are some of the LIGHTWORKERS and healing sites, Christ Consciousness sites just type in the words in your search engine Crystal Links is also very extensive with some soothing music on some of the sites like Atlantis metaphor.

More things are wrought by prayer than many people realize!

The 7thFire.com, HereInReality.com and http://www.hermes-press.com/ have articles against the plans of the New World Order, PNAC Global Dominionists but also have spiritual sections that are as important.

PEACE!



Comment #83: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 9:30am ET...

Sandra,

Oh this is what I was afraid of.....So he's already prepared to kill everybody, just like a mass-murdering crazy criminal.

And the united states military doesn't even realize it yet, this is sick to the core!

Since Rumsfeld does not have immunity, there must be some precedent to get him. Maybe we can trap him throw him in a prison cell, and make him talk. Say a black-op to get the full story from him and if he perjures himself, we will find out all Cheney is up to.

Rumsfeld has been involved with Larry Franklin and the other officers indicted for suspected treason for a while, there should be a precedent for us to grab him directly and interrogate.

Doug E.



Comment #84: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:37am ET...

There is a silver lining... if you can call it that. The military is in the process of taking back the Pentagon from the civilian planners. I have faith that they will suceed; all my personal knowledge and intimate relationship of the armed forces over the years tells me that they will no longer take orders from this out-of control dictatorship. I pray that I'm right.

But, I must tell you that one notable letter that I received recently from my 'hawkish' congressman stated that for years he had received letters from constituants decrying the fact that the job was never finished in Iraq and they were unsettled because the Gulf War did not go all the way to Bagdad.

These neocons look at this as 'unfinished business' for plans that were put on the shelf in 1991 -- they were so defiant about not being able to continue their death and destruction via Bush Sr. when he wasn't re-elected.



Comment #85: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 9:41am ET...

Congressman,

It also appears after extensive review that Diebold, ES&S or Sequoia voting machines will be installed in every single country that is nuked.

In the PNAC plan, it talks about "having official control over democracies in foreign nations" so even if they die, there will still be total control of Syria, Russia, the Dominican Republic etc.

http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachineCompanies.htm

The voting machines are all unverifiable, break down, and DIEBOLD especially makes millions off them. This way they can install dictators automatically into every country.

So if the machines are discredited and disbarred in the USA, they will still be used in all the other countries since the countries are not smart enough. That means the US puppets has control of every nation in the world.

This is PNAC's agenda.

By the way, Cheney is especially getting nervous and so is Bolton, now that a parallel special prosecutor is examining the Niger forgeries in Italy. They are interrogating CIA sources, and following the bread trail of Michael Ledeen....

'Meanwhile, a parallel investigation is under way into who forged the Niger documents. They are known to have been passed to an Italian journalist by a former Italian defence intelligence officer, Rocco Martino, in October 2002, but their origins have remained a mystery. Mr Martino has insisted to the Italian press that he was "a tool used by someone for games much bigger than me", but has not specified who that might be.

A source familiar with the inquiry said investigators were examining whether former US intelligence agents may have been involved in possible collaboration with Iraqi exiles determined to prove that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear programme.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1534684,00.html

Doug E.



Comment #86: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 9:53am ET...

Doug,

Top military command personnel and officers know the score. They need to take out the civilian leadership and are just the ones to do it.

There are plans in the works to 'accept' Cheney's resignation at an undisclosed location. It was initially planned as 'due to health reasons or family concerns' Cheney will step down.

Thus far, he's been playing hard ball and refuses to give up power. So, systematically, his power is being stripped; just as Bush is now a lame duck.

Everything that they've been doing has been to stall --- and time has been on their side. That's all about to change very soon. When you play with fire you will get burned!

p.s. Bolton is also a marked man; I've written about his status before.



Comment #87: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 9:54am ET...

"IRAN hates the USA with a profound blight that nothing can stop"

Well there you go again showing your true colors. Playing the hate card. Do you know how many Kurds are in Iran? I bet they don't hate us. The young folks there are rebelling against the mullahs like they were the parents of a hippy in 1969. They have tasted freedom seen it on the internet and see it next door on both sides. They have MTV (Beep Beep, Zang Zang) and cell phones and Check it out yourself before you try and tell me how much they hate us. They are just waiting to be liberated. Should they not have the same rights as you to chose their leaders?



Comment #88: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 9:54am ET...

I am buying more stock in tin foil. You people are trying to corner the market on tin foil and I want to profit on it.



Comment #89: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 10:00am ET...

NO DUmmie,

Do you have anything else to say but irrelevant bullshit? Every time you bring up something, it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I wonder why? Could it be too much heat to take?

hcocdr,

You seem to be okay with this, but PNAC doesn't give a crap about you. You spouting those lines about nonsense such as Iran "loves" americans and so on doesn't fly with them: They believe in war, 100% of the time to make USA a superpower.

I suggest you lay low, because there is some very bad people willing to take you out. And anyone else who is not fed up with Iran and ready to nuke them.

http://newamericancentury.org/

These are serious crimes of national treason, and until you take off the bullshit talking points will you be able to swallow it.

Doug E.



Comment #90: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:02am ET...

Iran and the US have a long history. Our government's hostile policy on Iran has been a disaster for many years. Read your history books people!

The people of Iran have pursued and welcomed democratic initiatives but, our policy has been to destroy any efforts because of our own distrust and anger at their government; not the people.

p.s. We need to stay out of other countries business -- we cannot dictate to everyone how they should live.



Comment #91: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:07am ET...

Another issue you might consider looking in to is the thawarted neocon efforts (Bolton's proliferation views) to prevent IAEA from monitoring Iran's nuclear program for clean energy purposes to provide for their ever growing population.

No... we want them to build up nukes so we can unilaterally attack them for their nuclear technology instead of harnessing the power of sustained energy sources.

Open your minds folks!



Comment #92: Erik said on 7/23/05 @ 10:07am ET...

Hey guys,

It's game day! I guess I'm as ready as I'll ever be. You guys should call your local media tip lines and say that "you heard about some big rallies going on in the neighborhood. They should check it out".

I'll probably end up with over 100 people (I hope) here in Philly. I've been getting a lot of e-mail requesting directions and time. That must mean that they got the word of the rally from somewhere other than ADS or Conyersblog. I hope this is to big for my outdoor venue and I run out of everything!

Wish me luck, and I'd like to do the same for all of you and everyone else throwing or attending rallies and meetings.

Let's flex our muscles!

Erik
SoapBox4Truth.org

P.S. I guess the Commander lost the will to fight. I hope he learned something.



Comment #93: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 10:07am ET...

Sandra,

I really hope so. The military needs to wake up and remove these corrupt civilians from their office or they are doomed.

Someone like Larry Franklin, who committed treason was giving the orders to the military. Why would they let such sleaze tell the army what they can think?

Its been a long time in coming, take Donald Rumsfeld in to rat on Cheney and then take Cheney down directly.

Doug E.



Comment #94: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:08am ET...

Hi Erik... did you get my email. I'm heading out in a little while to the event here. Did you see the list of supporters in attendence? WOW!



Comment #95: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:13am ET...

Participating Groups include:

ACLU • ACORN • Citizen’s Vote Verification Group Code Pink • Committee For Fair Elections Concerned Organizations for quality Education for Black Students Council of American Islamic Relations Democratic Party • Earth Charter Pinellas • Election Reform Coalition Equality Florida • FCAN/Floridians United to Protect Social Security First Progressive Club of St. Petersburg • Florida Voices for Animals Food for Life • Green Party • Gulfport Progressives • Humanists of Florida Interdenominational Ministerial Alliance • Libertarian Party National Council of Negro Women • Pinellas Progressives Rainbow Push Coalition • Sierra Club • Sojourner Truth Center St. Pete Food Not Bombs • St. Pete for Peace Stop Pet Overpopulation Together • Tampa Bay Veterans for Peace Tampa Indy Media • Uhuru Solidarity Committe • WMNF

Have a great day there Erik!



Comment #96: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 10:16am ET...

This might seem a bit off topic but from the higher perspective it is not. :) keep doing the good work!

"No matter how much success the dark seem to have it is illusionary and at this time their plans are falling apart and they are about to implode"

Ag Agria 07.22.05 Mike Quinsey



Comment #97: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 10:18am ET...

One hundred out of 1.5 million is big?

I would hate to see little then.

:o)



Comment #98: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 10:18am ET...

Wow, I almost fell out my chair when I saw this on Al Jazeera. Here are your words and talking points. I am telling you guys they are using what you and JC say to kill troops.

'Us' and 'them'

Although the two claim to be combating each other, the reality is that they are working in unison, one providing the justifications the other desperately needs for its fanaticism, ferocity and savagery.

No wonder, it didn't take the neo-conservative world supremacists long to spot the immense opportunities 11 September handed them. Their puritanical missionary belief in being God's instruments on earth and grand imperial ambitions could now be realised through shameless emotional blackmail and bogus moral claims.

The two share a shallow, myopic, dualistic conception of the world populated by 'us' and 'them' in Bush's language, 'believers' and 'non-believers' in Bin Laden's. Al-Zarqawi and his fellows then brandish the sword of excommunication (takfir) against the Muslim body itself in an endless orgy of maiming and mutilation.



Comment #99: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 10:20am ET...

Pot, meet kettle.

You might want to reread Rep. Conyer's blog entry again and tell me who is off topic.



Comment #100: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 10:22am ET...

Bush Administration seeks court order to prevent release of Abu Gharib Photos and documents

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/23/MNGC6DSK7Q1.DTL

"The lawyers said in a letter sent to the federal court in Manhattan late Thursday that they would file a sealed brief explaining their reasons for not turning over the material, which they were to have released by Friday.

The photographs were some of thousands turned over by Spc. Joseph Darby, the whistle-blower who exposed the abuse at Abu Ghraib by giving investigators computer disks containing photographs and videos of prisoners being abused, sexually humiliated and threatened with dogs.

The small number of the photographs released in spring 2004 provoked international outrage at the American military."

Cheney must know he is seriously fucked on the DSM, or he would not intentionally interfere with the rulings of Federal Judges.

This man must be in so deep it can't even be seen anymore!

We need to go forward and nail the final stake through the DSM, to his non-functioning, machine of a heart!

What a sad sick mobster this cretin is, that he had to have his human heart removed. Just frightening...

Doug E.



Comment #101: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:22am ET...

Again Commander, you're spewing neocon talking points on this blog. And AlJazeera is their mouth piece.

Who said, "you're either with us or against us?"

I don't get my news from al jazeera. Funny how you seem to though....

Dummy, you're just upset because you're not invited. Boo hoo... crybaby!



Comment #102: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:25am ET...

Comment #96: Lemon
Thank you.



Comment #103: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 10:27am ET...

Or are you using their talking points?( scary music )

I hope the parties went well today. I am sure those check books and pocket books are a little lighter for JC. He has found a new group to prey on. So he jumps on anything against the President no matter how absurd or fake they are, can you name me one time JC has ever agreed with anything the President has ever done in the 5 years he has been leading this country.



Comment #104: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 10:31am ET...

FBI Blows whistle on Gitmo abuse

""On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night.""

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=22036&mode=nested&order=0

Dear god now I know why those photos just can't be shown!!!!

Hoo boy....And we now know why JC isn't against Bush, but the Bush admin...Hell JC authorized and helped write the Patriot Act. He didn't authorize any of the revisions after that, and neither did over 20 republicans and democrats in both houses.

Doug E.



Comment #105: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:32am ET...

Commander, thanks for your contribution --- remember it only takes one clean shot to the head!



Comment #106: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 10:44am ET...

Here’s some news you can use. They will never Vote, They will never work together, they will never draft a constitution, they will never elect women to government positions, they will never appoint Christians to government positions, they really won’t vote on December 15, 2005 any more or your predictions you wish to be disproved by the free people of Iraq.

Iraq constitution could be ready by end-July: Talabani
Source: Agence France-Presse English Wire Date: July 19, 2005

BAGHDAD, July 19 (AFP) - Iraq's new post-Saddam Hussein constitution could be ready by the end of July, two weeks ahead of schedule, President Jalal Talabani said Tuesday.
"The committees working on the constitution are about to finalise the constitution and it could be ready by end of the current month," Talabani told reporters after a meeting with former prime minister Iyad Allawi.
The drafting of the consitution is a key stage in the political transition of Iraq following the ousting of Saddam in April 2003 by US-led invasion forces but has been dogged by some fundamental and controversial issues.
"There are some issues raised by our Sunni Arab brothers about the constitution and we are discussing them and if we reach an agreement, I think the constitution could be ready by end of the current month," he added.
The charter must be finished by August 15 and put to a national referendum by October 15, according to the interim law.
Defining and implementing a federal system, the relationship between the state and the country's dominant religion Islam, how to deal with the legacy Saddam's Baath party, and even what to call Iraq are some of the thorny issues.



Comment #107: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:45am ET...

Doug,

The Patriot Act was pre-established via John Ashcroft, Alberto Gonzalez, Bush, Cheney, etal and reviewed by the congressional judiciary committee prior to implementation; democrats were in several instances left out or locked out of the deliberations and were prevented from revisions.

All those photos and videos have already been shown in closed conference to the entire Senate and Congress. Members were quite ill afterwards; especially with the forced sexual acts and sodomy.

The neocons (our public servants) will do what ever they can to prevent them from being released to the people... the rightful owners of such information.

I refer you to my earlier post:
Comment #44: Sandra



Comment #108: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 10:45am ET...

#103

Not that I have ever seen, not even once.



Comment #109: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 10:48am ET...

# 105

Nurse Sandy,

Shame on you, advocating violence and harm. What about the hypocritical oath, that do no harm stuff. Are you an LPN or an RN or just a hospital maid.



Comment #110: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:49am ET...

Support for this illegal coup in the White House does not garner respect or following... your unwavering and unquestionable support suggests a severe mental blockage on the level of a moron.

Is that why name is Dummy?



Comment #111: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 10:49am ET...

Doug #93

There is so much happening behind the scene. Bush was asked to resign many times by higher forces. He stubbornly resists. They do not understand it is the end of their ruling on planet earth. At this point, a smooth military removal seems to be a likely scenario. Let's wait and see. Come what may the NESARA announcement removes immediately the US government to be replaced by a temporary and limited team of enlightened, trustworthy people. The likelihood of having impeachment proceedings is void. No impeachment applies to a Non-President who stole the elections twice!

07.23.05
Christ Michael: "My friends, it is time to clarify some issues around the NESARA announcement. This previous Tuesday, we had a plan to announce NESARA, which was set for 6 PM EDT in the USA. Early in the morning, a mole let it out, and we got wind of the problem and canceled, not willing to risk the lives and health of the announcement crew. We carefully set a trap for that evening, and a large group of the best of the BBB&G’s in the secret military fell into it, and are now detained, the whereabouts we will not disclose. We are searching for a mole obviously at this time, and have recently acquired some extremely good leads."



Comment #112: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:50am ET...

I'm a brain surgeon! May I help you?



Comment #113: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 10:54am ET...

Lemon,

If you are CIA or secret agent, you have a duty to leak classified details to us.

What is going on with NESARA?

Can they get Rumsfeld and force him to testify, before its too late and Cheney team nukes IRAN?

What other things are going on that may need to be known about, in the direct result that they are not a theory and directly affect the US?

The time for keeping secrets is over...We all know what those secrets do. And now hcocdr is acting like a liberal commander, he does not realize PNAC does not give a crap about him.

Hope he stays out of the limelight, or they'll shoot him directly on sight. Not much different than the streets of Iran, which are already prepared to nuke the states if we nuke them first.

Not a good sign at all....I need to know what the plan is.

Doug E.



Comment #114: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 10:55am ET...

#107

Nice fairy tale.

Rep. Conyers one of the 26 co-sponors of the House bill.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HR02975:@@@P

Anymore revisions to history today, Sandra?



Comment #115: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 10:56am ET...

No thanks, but Lemon needs an appointment.



Comment #116: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 10:57am ET...

Nice try Dummy... except for the fact that there are two different versions of the same bill.



Comment #117: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:01am ET...

Comment #113: Doug Eldritch
That cannot be done on this public forum.



Comment #118: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 11:01am ET...

#116

No kidding, the House version and the Senate version.

DUH.



Comment #119: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:02am ET...

No, the original version that was passed in the middle of the night without debate.



Comment #120: hcocdr said on 7/23/05 @ 11:03am ET...

Got to go guys. My little girl (7) is playing in the softball (pitching machine) championship game today at home at 11:00. I have to go call my wife on the cell and she'll give me a play by play here in Iraq. I love this technology. Keep-um straight here No D.



Comment #121: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 11:04am ET...

Sandra,

You are correct, it would make us hypocrites. Leaking of classified information is illegal and would violate the law.

What I should have said was, any details about the NESARA which can be leaked or told to the press. Anything credible you can report here please, by any means say it now Lemon.

Doug E.



Comment #122: Jo said on 7/23/05 @ 11:06am ET...

Rick,
Good grief!!
People still haven't seen John Kerry's war records? Contrary to "John Wayne" o'Neils account, they have been available since the get go dear.During the election you could see them at his website. Being a naturally modest kind of a guy he has removed them. However you can get a glimpse of the Navy's sterling opinion of his war record at :
news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/election2004
or you can easily google them up on other sites.
The Marine whose life he saved lives in my state. He spoke to veterans here and many paralyzed vets like my hubby attended. You don't have to like or support the guy but attacking his service with purple heart bandaids was dispicable. I see lots of guys coming back from Iraq with purple hearts for shrapnel wounds. You don't ask for a purple heart you are recommended for it.
Don't attack the service of any war veteran. If you go you are a hero.You are a hero Rick,You are there.
Remember it's more than Bush,Cheney,Rummy.Rove,Limbaugh,O'rielly etc. etc ever did.
Be proud and don't let the righties disparage any brave American.



Comment #123: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 11:07am ET...

#119

Oh well.

It was voted on and passed.

:o)



Comment #124: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:16am ET...

Doug,

I'll give you a hint...

Senate Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner (R-Va.), a leading author of the May 23 bipartisan Senate agreement that stopped Vice President Dick Cheney's "nuclear option," and who sees himself as a defender of the American military, is charging that the Pentagon's BRAC recommendations "deviate substantially" from the criteria established in the law. In testimony to the BRAC Commission in Arlington, Va. on July 7, Warner emphasized that he himself had written the BRAC legislation, and therefore is intimately familiar with the intent of Congress, and has been involved in the BRAC process for 17 years. Warner quoted Benjamin Franklin's remark after the 1789 Constitutional Convention: "We have given you a republic, if you can keep it." He denounced the way the Pentagon made its determinations, and said that he is prepared to take the issue to Federal court, having already written a 37-page legal brief.



Comment #125: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 11:19am ET...

Sandra,

Do you think John Warner has finally woken up and is working with Democrats to strip Cheney of his powers?

Could there be a plan going on behind the scenes to get the military to detain witnesses, and uncover the plot Cheney has hatched on Iran/Middle East?

Oh we can only hope this is true, and that NESARA is a reality. This has gone far too out of control, and with millions of lives hanging in the balance of a nuclear war, I sure as hell hope everyone's taking notes.

Doug E.



Comment #126: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:21am ET...

Yes.



Comment #127: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 11:27am ET...

See the latest story in Italy.

I wonder if they are secretly planning to arrest Michael Ledeen, its clear him, Harold Rhode and several CIA agents are who forged the NIGER Papers.

Those CIA agents are traitors to the United States. And I bet they all work for AIPAC.

Doug E.



Comment #128: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 11:34am ET...

There is nothing classified of what I say or post.
Mr Conyers has a gag order hanging on his back not us.

The messages from Mike Quinsey are channeled from higher realms and are important to read, the wording is carefully chosen. I admit that there are many concepts that go far beyond common knowledge but this is each soul's responsibility to go further and investigate. These messages carry strong energy and guidance for the ones who can recognize them as such.

What I want to stress is that there are unprecedented events being prepared behind the scene.

Doug= I appreciate the honor of your questions and can always try to answer them however you need to be more specific.



Comment #129: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:38am ET...

This article is a bit dated; but still worth the read.

`SYNARCHISM-NAZI/COMMUNISM'
Michael Ledeen Demands

`Regime Change' in Iran
by Scott Thompson

We have already crossed the Rubicon. We are already in Hell. World War III in Eurasia is already ongoing. There was not an Iraq war; there is a continuing Iraq war. There was not an Afghanistan war; there is a continuing Afghanistan war. There's already an onset of a war with Iran, being run covertly, as a covert operation, from the United States, in Iran right now! You see it on the television screens here. That is not a spontaneous student movement. That is a U.S.-run destabilization of Iran, trying to set up the conditions for a war. The situation in Korth Korea; other situations I know of; we are now inside World War III. It is not something that we could prevent from happening. We're there.

Ledeen's ideas are quoted daily by such figures as Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. His views virtually define the stark departure from American foreign policy philosophy that characterized United States actions since September 11, 2001.... Now Ledeen is calling for 'regime change' beyond Iraq. In an address titled 'Time to Focus on Iran: The Mother of Modern Terrorism,' for the policy forum of the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) on April 30, he declared: "The time for diplomacy is at the end; it is time for a free Iran, a free Syria and free Lebanon."

The pointman is Michael Ledeen, who divides his time among National Review Online, JINSA, and the American Enterprise Institute (AEI). Ledeen is stirring up the networks in Congress and the press, and lining up tainted intelligence to justify war on Iran.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2003/3027ledeen_iran.html



Comment #130: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 11:40am ET...

Larouche?

Talk about your barking moonbat...



Comment #131: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:44am ET...

Ledeen's 'Focus on Iran'
Ledeen and company have been putting this operation in place for some time. In 2001, Ledeen founded the Coalition for Democracy in Iran (CDI), with a call for regime change in that country. One of his partners in founding the coalition was Dr. Rob Sobhani, a professor at Georgetown University and president of Caspian Energy Consulting. Support for the CDI also comes from the Center for Security Policy's Frank Gaffney, former Rep. Jack Kemp, Joshua Muravchik of AEI, and former CIA director James Woolsey, who sits on the Defense Policy Board. Woolsey has also worked for the Doug Feith/Abram Shulsky "Office of Special Plans" in the Pentagon, which cooked the intelligence to push through the Iraq War. One of CDI's policies, as spelled out in the June 15 Washington Post, is to support Brownback's call for an Iran Liberation Act, similar to the 1997 one for Iraq.



Comment #132: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 11:45am ET...

Lemon,

Tell me exactly what NESARA is and who might be detained now for questioning, who was in the secret military. In other words who is spilling their guts, especially in light of this article.

"George Tenet, the director of the CIA at the time, took responsibility for the false claim, helping to draw fire away from the White House, but yesterday's report suggests that Mr Rove and Mr Libby had a role in drafting his public admission.

The news that the two senior officials were intimately involved in the issue added to scepticism about their claims to have initially heard about Ms Plame from journalists, rather than the other way round.

Leaking the identity of an undercover agent is a serious crime under US law, but prosecutors would have to prove that the leaker was aware of the agent's covert status. However, the investigation, led by federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, is reported also to be investigating possible charges of perjury and obstruction of justice.

Meanwhile, a parallel investigation is under way into who forged the Niger documents. They are known to have been passed to an Italian journalist by a former Italian defence intelligence officer, Rocco Martino , in October 2002, but their origins have remained a mystery. Mr Martino has insisted to the Italian press that he was "a tool used by someone for games much bigger than me", but has not specified who that might be.

A source familiar with the inquiry said investigators were examining whether former US intelligence agents may have been involved in possible collaboration with Iraqi exiles determined to prove that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear programme.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1534684,00.html

Doug E.



Comment #133: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:46am ET...

Dummy I know it's hard for you to compete on this level of intelligence... best to rest your brain, that is if you still have one?

Everyone else who has the ability to think; do you recognize the names and are you putting the pieces of the puzzle together?



Comment #134: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 11:49am ET...

Sandra,
How much you want to bet it was James Woolsey of the office on special plans, who conspired directly with Cheney's office?

In order to plant the documents I bet you it was Woolsey, who talked with Libby alot of the times during the leadup to the Iraq war.

Remember he is CIA, so he knows all the ins and outs of Italy and Iraq. Lewis Libby is too stupid to act alone for this conspiracy. I bet you Woolsey was the liason, and he went into the meeting room in Rome where Harold Rhode, Paul Wolfowitz and Michael Ledeen hatched the scheme.

That would be the place they ended up forging the documents, and Woolsey probably planted them with the Italian press...And then this would lead back to AIPAC and PNAC's "office of special plans" again.

Doug E.



Comment #135: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:50am ET...

http://www.nesara.us/pages/home.html



Comment #136: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 11:55am ET...

repost:

"Who Forged the Niger Documents?"

By Ian Masters, AlterNet. Posted April 7, 2005.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/21704/

A former counterterrorism chief claims that the now discredited documents
that showed Iraq trying to purchase uranium were fabricated right here in
the United States.

Editor’s Note: This is an edited transcript of an interview conducted by Ian
Masters with Vincent Cannistaro, the former CIA head of counterterrorism
operations and intelligence director at the National Security Council
under Ronald Reagan, which aired on the Los Angeles public radio KPFK on
April 3, 2005.

---snippet---

>Ian Masters: Do we know who produced those documents? Because there’s
>some suspicion ...

>Vincent Cannistaro: I think I do, but I’d rather not speak about it right
>now, because I don’t think it’s a proven case ...

>Ian Masters: If I said “Michael Ledeen” ?

>Vincent Cannistaro: You’d be very close . . .

---end snippet---

--------------------------------

Now who does Ledeen get his marching orders from?

Introduce yourself to Mister Ledeen:

Profile: Michael Ledeen

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-1541

Ledeen Quote, August 6, 2002

“Scowcroft has managed to get one thing half right, even though he
misdescribes it. He fears that if we attack Iraq ‘I think we could have an
explosion in the Middle East. It could turn the whole region into a caldron
and destroy the War on Terror.’ One can only hope that we turn the region
into a cauldron, and faster, please. If ever there were a region that richly
deserved being cauldronized, it is the Middle East today. If we wage the war
effectively, we will bring down the terror regimes in Iraq, Iran, and Syria,
and either bring down the Saudi monarchy or force it to abandon its global
assembly line to indoctrinate young terrorists. That's our mission in the
war against terror.” [
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen080602a.asp National Review
Online, 8/6/02]

--------------------------------

Make sure you find the time to read Ledeen's entire page and assorted links
at that site. In addition you may wish to take a gander at this link:
http://tinyurl.com/b32j9 also . . .

I hope this helped--

Signed,

An Old Codger



Comment #137: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 11:57am ET...

Sandra,
Excellent find! All NESARA has to do since it is a governmental thinktank, is find James Woolsley and interrogate him!

Then we need to interrogate Larry Franklin who's already in prison. The whole case for forged war documents would fall into the public's lap! This is very good, Conyers should contact the special prosecutor in Britain and get the docs on the Niger fiasco turned over.

We could literally get a forced resolution to start arresting these scam artists....Imagine how much knowledge a CIA member has..

Doug E.



Comment #138: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:03pm ET...

Wow, there is a night and day difference between these two.

Ledeen hated Snowcroft so bad he spun every single story he wrote!

This proves that Saddom Hussein wasn't even on the agenda, until later when this neocon got involved. Probably already largely conspiring with the vice president....

Is there any way to seize the phone call records in the WH, that Ledeen made with Cheney, office of special plans counsel Wolfowitz, etc before invasion?

Doug E.



Comment #139: Dr Alan H Levinson said on 7/23/05 @ 12:06pm ET...

I don't know if anyone's has seen this, but its quite funny!!

Alan

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/21/opinion/main710759.shtml



Comment #140: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:06pm ET...

Rusty,

Do not even bother with them. I found out a majority, a great majority of freepers who call themselves Free Republicans are just 30 and under whippersnappers who make no sense half the time and are absolutely nuts.

Even senior citizens a vast majority who vote republican, don't trust these idiots.

You shouldn't either, stay away from that.

Doug E.



Comment #141: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 12:09pm ET...

#133

"....level of intelligence..."

Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha!



Comment #142: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 12:11pm ET...

In short, the imminent announcement of the National Economic Security and Reformation Act (NESARA) will mark the end of tyranny on this planet. It will mark the end of Darkness (illuminati) whose favorite games are chaos, wars, control, manipulation, corruption and covert agendas.

It is difficult to grasp this because it streches beyond our 3D existence. Keeping the masses in the dark as always been essential to mislead people.



Comment #143: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:11pm ET...

Many records were seized by the Feds and others, Justice Dept., Fitzgerald and the Grand Jury; etc. still some other records have been diverted, stalled, shredded, in complete obstruction of justice.

also see HR 375
Rep. Lee Introduces Resolution of Inquiry into Iraq War Planning
Congresswoman Barbara Lee (Dem., Calif.) today introduced - along with 26 co-sponsors - a Resolution of Inquiry in the House of Representatives which, if passed, will require the White House and the State Department to "transmit all information relating to communication with officials of the United Kingdom between January 1, 2002, and October 16, 2002, relating to the policy of the United States with respect to Iraq."



Comment #144: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:14pm ET...

Sandra,

I think its great news they are pushing for full resolutions of Inquiry, but it won't pass congress.

Even if 30 republicans vote for it, the bill still won't pass.

I just want to see everyone do their own resolution of inquiry, the illuminati(aka: council for national policy) is almost dead now, PNAC has dragged everyone off a cliff and its time we get the facts.

One simple citizen sponsored, military sponsored, resolution of inquiry could force the department of defense to cave and hand it over. After all they don't want the CIA and FBI as enemies....

Doug E.



Comment #145: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:19pm ET...

My understanding is that the banks will be taken in to receivership; Lemon do you have the same info?



Comment #146: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:21pm ET...

Who are the three Supreme Court judges imposing the gag rule?



Comment #147: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:24pm ET...

Holy unbelievable shit,

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/page.cfm?pageID=1170

"RNEP would produce tremendous radioactive fallout: A nuclear earth penetrator cannot penetrate deep enough to contain the nuclear fallout. Even the strongest casing will crush itself by the time it penetrates 10-30 feet into rock or concrete. For comparison, even a one-kiloton nuclear warhead (less than 1/10th as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb) must be buried at least 200-300 feet to contain its radioactive fallout.<3> The high yield RNEP will produce tremendous fallout that will drift for more than a thousand miles downwind. As, Linton Brooks, the head of the National Nuclear Security Administration told Congress in April, "the laws of physics will far enough to trap all fallout. This is a nuclear weapon that is going to be hugely destructive over a large area" if it goes off underground. "

George Bush would never order that, he's not idiotic enough to because doing that kind of damage could get him killed in the retaliation.

Dick Cheney however....They are not scared. They will completely nuke using RNEP, and our Congress needs to wake up and stop the madmen of PNAC..

Good freaking god the devastation in those nuclear blasts....The retaliation against us would be unprecedented.

Doug E.



Comment #148: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 12:27pm ET...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4174654

Heh.



Comment #149: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:30pm ET...

Doug,

Yes; they had the geological maps and estimated fall-out on the Senate floor during the debate that I mentioned earlier.



Comment #150: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:31pm ET...

"Figure 2: Only a small region around a nuclear explosion reaches temperatures high enough to sterilize chemical or biological agents. But the seismic shock or blast wave propagates much further, ejecting a large crater of dirt and debris. Agents stored within the crater volume, but outside the small sterilization zone, would be dispersed into the environment.

RNEP would not be effective at destroying the deepest or widely separated bunkers. The seismic shock produced by the RNEP would only be able to destroy bunkers to a depth of about a thousand feet. Modern bunkers can be deeper than that, with a widely separated complex of connected rooms and tunnels.

There are more effective conventional alternatives to RNEP: Current precision-guided conventional weapons can be used to cut off a bunker's communications, power, and air, effectively keeping the enemy weapons underground and unusable until U.S. forces secure them. Sealing chemical or biological agents underground is far more sensible than trying to blow them up."

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/page.cfm?pageID=1170

How quickly can these lunatics be stopped? Lemon, Sandra any idea?

Doug E.



Comment #151: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 12:32pm ET...

#150

They can't be stopped.

He-he.



Comment #152: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:36pm ET...

Who are the three Supreme Court judges?

The National Economic Security And Reformation Act (NESARA) containing required reformations was submitted to Congress in 1999 where it sat with little action for almost a year. Late one evening in March 2000, a written quorum call was hand-delivered by Delta Force and Navy SEALs to only members of the US Senate and the US House who were sponsors and co-sponsors of NESARA. The members were immediately accompanied by the Delta Force and Navy SEALs to their respective voting chambers where they passed the National Economic Security And Reformation Act.

The National Economic Security And Reformation Act provides the following, some of which will take place immediately after the official announcement of NESARA which is to be televised live from Washington, DC:

1. Restores Constitutional Law in the USA.

2. Requires the current US administration to resign their positions to allow a fresh start at the national level and installs Constitutionally acceptable NESARA President and Vice President Designates until new elections can take place within six months. Bush and Cheney will be resigning and the Cabinet and Appointees by the President, and all members of Congress must resign within 72 hours of NESARA’s announcement.

3. NESARA US President Designate declares "peace" because NESARA abolishes unconstitutional states of emergency.

4. As partial remedy for 100 years of government and banking fraud, credit card balances are zeroed out and bank debt relief is given to Americans for bank loans including mortgages, car loans, education loans, business loans, and other bank debt. Banks will be paid $9000 per each credit card account with a balance; these funds were raised in special revenue generating activities in Europe. NESARA requires other bank debts be made self-liquidating loans and US banks are instructed to use new high revenue generating processes to pay off Americans’ bank loans.

5. Initiates the US Treasury Bank System with new U.S. Treasury currency backed by precious metals. The Federal Reserve is abolished and Federal Reserve facilities and most personnel are absorbed into the Treasury Bank System. We will be exchanging our Federal Reserve notes, which are not backed by gold, for the US Treasury currency which is backed by gold. Many bank personnel have already been trained on NESARA and the new currency is already in some banks’ vaults.

6. Abolishes Income Taxes in US and creates a national sales tax on new, non-essential items as revenue for government. Essential items such as food and medicine, and used items are exempt from the sales tax.

The NESARA law requires that a minimum of one time each year, there must be an effort made to announce NESARA. Three current US Supreme Court judges control the committee in charge of NESARA’s announcement. The Judges have used their overall authority to secretly sabotage NESARA’s announcement; thus each year NESARA has been blocked from being announced.



Comment #153: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:40pm ET...

Sandra,
I sure as hell hope so! If the freepers are now cheerleading this kind of insane, deplorable nuclear fallout and no longer calling it "conspiracy theory" they too must all have cracked and are ready to die!

I don't think America and alot of the countries around the globe are though, I really do not believe anyone wants nuclear war.

Well at this point there is absolutely no choice but to speed up everything, and get these bastard PNAC leaders taken down. If NESARA has to do it by force, I will be actively watching and participating with U.K. leaders to do it.

Doug E.



Comment #154: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:40pm ET...

Doug, that's the big question -- there are so many things going on behind the scene and all I keep hearing is 'soon'?



Comment #155: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:48pm ET...

Soon better be as in, the american people have a backup plan fast.

I can't believe President Cheney would actually do this, I can't believe he would stoop this low.

Just to avoid being tried at the Hague, Cheney is prepared to drop a nuclear bomb on the Middle East before the prosecution is even there.

It's completely deplorable, what kind of, has Cheney or any of his neocons in PNAC ever been to a real church? Have they ever talked to their wives? Are they so completely beyond pale, that they would kill themselves in martyrdom?

Doug E.



Comment #156: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 12:50pm ET...

Thank you, Mr. Conyers, for all you are doing. I have watched the hearings twice. Just running the tape gives me comfort that there are good people who are trying very hard to protect our country and all of us. There have been times (before the appearance of the DSM) that I just didn't recognize my own country anymore.

The extreme hatred spewed out from the White House against democrats or muslims -- what about the democrats or American muslims who are fighting in the war for us? The White House likes the devisiveness. I am sure it is one of Rove's great ideas. Should people be concerned to see lock-step loyalty to a Party over country? Is that "American"?

I don't recognize a President of the United States that attacks the Geneva Conventions and changes the status of the prisoners so he (the President) won't be charged with war crimes. How about Crimes against Humanity.

There is so much the White House is doing that is sullying this country. They have no allegiance in this country. They aren't religious -- they are using the religious people and hiding among them.

I think this is one of the most dangerous administrations and one of the most dangerous presidents our country has ever seen. It is so unexpected that people are having a hard time believing what has happened.

There has been no investigation of 9/11 but the incident is used constantly to justify any behavior.

We are turning into a police state. Our Congressmen are voting away our Constitutional rights thru the Patriot Act. Our Congressmen are voting away our civil rights. Have we been sold out?

Who are these people? Who do they have allegiance to if not to America? Our Constitution and our Bill of Rights set us apart from other governments. It is what is special about this country. It is that we hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior and treatment of others. Until now.

Before, we were contemplating the meaning of "is." Now, we are parsing "treason" and "torture." We have been taken down a really ugly path. I think I'll go put the hearing tape back on.



Comment #157: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 12:50pm ET...

Mrs. Cheney is one of the largest contributors to AEI. Also, Cheney has been running this country from the inside for a long time --- you didn't actually believe Dubya was in charge did you?



Comment #158: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 12:55pm ET...

I never believed Dumbya was in charge....

I always believed he was being black-mailed to be the mouthpiece.

He is just far too stupid to ever know all of that crap, and he doesn't care anyway because a fundamentalist church will keep him sane in his eyes.

He is the "general drunk on parade" who keeps PNAC from looking like cold lifeless destructicons--Which is what they are.

But if Lynn is prepared to die, shes off the deepend. If she has any head left to screw on, I'd advise she consult her husband's mental health quick.

Doug E.



Comment #159: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 1:07pm ET...

Doug, I am worried, too. It has concerned me that Cheney is no where to be found right now -- is he off planning something?

Will "someone" set off a nuclear bomb inside our country so our government will then blame it on whomever they want (Iran, Moldavia?). All the evidence will be quickly cleaned up with no photography allowed. The press will tell us who did it within 24 hours. If people are caught, they will have secret trials behind closed doors. More than likely it will be determined that the perpetrators died during the attack so there will be no stories told -- except the "approved" one. The Republican Neo-Cons will declare it an “opportunity.” Sound familiar? The incident will then be used for marshall law, maybe extending the time served in office. Then off we go -- mandatory draft -- war anywhere, everywhere.

It has been shown that this Administration times "incidents" with elections. Are we going to make it to the 2006 elections before elections are "taken" away from us?

When the polls drop for Bush, in one way it reassures my belief in the average citizen to see what is happening. But, on the other hand, it increases my fear that this Administration and some Congressmen might be planning to never step down. Maybe it is just the increased rhetoric that lets the mind go down certain paths. I hope I am wrong, but the fears are real. What a thought to have -- that the next nuclear attack will be on our soil -- and the group responsible is hiding among us. So, we defeated Hitler and Communism so we could become it ourselves?

And, if all these fears are unfounded -- why is the average citizen running to their dictionaries looking up "republic" "democracy" "fascism" "totalitarianism"? Just to remind ourselves of the difference?
Are those words the "beeps" of the alarm clock? Maybe we should wake up.



Comment #160: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 1:15pm ET...

Yes but its far worse, nuclear bombs.....Killing millions.

We have to hurry and soon...Even if we moved from the country after it began, World War III would have already started....

There will be no place safe not even Australia, with all the weird events happening...Nukes will be fired everywhere, from multiple countries.

No, we have to wake up everyone now and make it directly to Fitzergald and the other prosecutors indictments, so we can march in and arrest him. He has to be stopped now, and we need to be always thinking ahead to stop them.

That's all that matters, the DSM has cornered him and he knows there's no way out.....But down.

Doug E.



Comment #161: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 1:16pm ET...

Lemon, this one's for you:

"NESARA is an acronym for the National Economic Stabilization and Recovery Act, which is a legislative proposal that merely reintroduces specie as alternative currencies to help combat anti-inflationary policies of the paper currency. The NESARA proposal is sponsored by the “NESARA Institute”, having offices at 7635 Jefferson Highway, No. 354, Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70809 (Ph: 864-886-0657). Although the NESARA proposal has been presented to many Congresspersons over the years, and some have expressed interest in the proposal, it hasn't yet built up sufficient support for even introduction to Committee, much less to a full vote by Congress. Maybe someday the NESARA proposal will find support in Congress and may be presented for a vote, but that really isn't the point of this webpage. (You can read all about NESARA at www.nesara.org). The point of this webpage is that when certain scam artists claim that NESARA has been "enacted into law" by "secret Acts of Congress" they are telling a great big lie and total fabrication because NESARA has never even been formally made into a Bill or presented for either a Committee vote or a full vote or Congress"

Link to website

Do you have any comments?



Comment #162: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 1:17pm ET...

To Bill Fertik -

Bill, This is what you stated at the Towhall speech:

.."Yet the mainstream media refuse to report it, because as - I said -the word impeachment is strictly taboo"

This is not correct and it does not stand up. You know it.

The Truth is rather: "the Mainstream Media is NOT reporting or talking about impeachment BECAUSE it is completely in the hands of malevolent people. (They call themselves Illuminati) The MSM has been corporately owned since the 30's and we lost our Democracy a long time ago. At this point, the Mainstream Media is purely a propaganda channel for the people in positions of power and influence. This fact IS the true taboo."

I know it is hard to speak the Truth in public - whatever consequences it may have - but this is the sad reality about the Mainstream Media. It is now the time to wake up and see WHO is behind the smoke screen and TELL. Americans cannot continue to live in denial and surf on the surface of the iceberg.



Comment #163: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 1:24pm ET...

Lemon,

Please answer the questions. Why does NESARA have a united states address (.us) if it does not have official approval from members of congress?

Is there more to all of this? Is there really something unprecedented going on here, behind the role of government?

Doug E.



Comment #164: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 1:33pm ET...

#145 Sarah

What do you mean exactly?
The banks are all ready to implement the new financial and banking system. The staff was trained and the new dollar bills (they have colors of the rainbow) are stored in all bank's vault. they have been sitting there for four years now. At 10.00 am on 9/11 the NESARA was scheduled for announcement from Tower 1 and the new banking software was supposed to start downloading. The missile balst on the Pentagon was actually the offices of the NESARA team.



Comment #165: van said on 7/23/05 @ 1:34pm ET...

How many times are you people going to let dougey advocate the violent overthrow of the US govt, subverting the constitution, murdering US army personnel, and commiting treason?



Comment #166: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 1:37pm ET...

Dear Rep. Conyers,

Are you really under a NESARA law gag-order? If this is just a distraction, please tell us.

Or tell us to drop the subject :)



Comment #167: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 1:37pm ET...

Former Freeper admits how he was brainwashed:

"The Quizzical Toad (36 posts) Fri Jul-22-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you. :)
I've found you all to be very nice here, much nicer than I had previously imagined. This is not an easy post to write but I have come to respect a lot of you here and thus feel I ought to be candid in answering your questions.

I am twenty four years old, which means I suppose much of my problem was the result of the ignorance of youth coupled with a naivety one can only possess at these years of one's life. I moved around quite a lot while I was growing up and often went through times where I did not have many friends. Long story short, this led me to a period of spiritual searching, during which I became Catholic.

Being young, and foolish, I embraced much of what the more conservative Catholics and apologists for the Church said at face value. I had embraced much of what they taught as my own core values. In fact, I even considered becoming a priest for a while. Not having much experience in life, I was highly judgemental of others, about on the same level as one would expect of a Fundamentalist of sorts. I suppose it was a form of rebellion, considering that my family was rather liberal in its outlook.

It was really only a matter of time before I started listening to Limbaugh. I was young and impressionable. As a young enthusiastic Catholic convert who wanted to change the world, and saw it "filled with sin", so to speak, it was very easy to accept a scapegoat. People like Rush offered a group to blame: namely, "liberals" abd "liberalism". It was the "liberals" who went out dismantling sexual mores while promoting abortion. It was the "liberals" who ignored the Constitution. "Democrats" were just a bunch of wealthy elitists who looked down on the rest of society while finding ways to keep them down through higher taxes. "The Clintons" were responsible for most of our woes, both foreign and domestic.

Now I will make a confession that I am a bit nervous to make. I was not just a Republican, but a rather dogmatic one at that. I was a FReeper. I would like to think that I was one of the more "reasonable" ones (I avoided flame wars like the plague and meticulously avoided using ad hominem), but I am not entirely sure how possible that is on a site like that, looking back. I joined that site back in 2001, before 9/11. I engaged in quite a few "troll hunts" and "zot threads" and the such. I can't say I'm completely proud of it.

It was a slow and subtle process. I embraced that way of thought based on the initial premises I held when I first decided I was a "conservative". As a Republican, I really believed that I was supporting freedom, albeit within "moral guidelines" (translated into English, that means I opposed abortion rights, civil unions, and basically anything of which I did not approve - how is that for freedom?). I was a self described "pure capitalist". I considered social programs to be a waste of money and harmful to the efficiency of the economy. Lovely stuff.

My first discomforts with being a conservative came after 9/11, when FReepers began to call for bombing of Mecca and the rest of the Middle East. It never quite struck me as American to brutally kill innocent civilians to somehow stop attacks on innocent civilians. Still, I dismissed such ramblings as proceeding from emotion and did not waiver in my support for Bush.

When the time for the war in Iraq came about, I supported that too. I didn't support it because I thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, or because I believed that Iraq had financed the 9/11 attacks, but rather because I had long believed Saddam Hussein to be a monster that had to be removed from office. Until about a year ago or so, I was quite vocal in my classrooms when it came to supporting the war. Looking back, I see it as a grave mistake that has led to the senseless destruction of lives.

As I grew older, and gained a bit more experience in the world, I began to move away from some of those earlier premises that led to me becoming a conservative. I suppose that having sex, for example, does wonders in removing one's harshly judgemental attitudes about "waiting for marriage" ! I dealt with a girlfriend that could best be described as a "serial liar", which taught me that it is foolish and harmful to trust someone simply because you think you "know" them. I began to actually listen to liberals instead of simply dismiss them from the outset, which is a great way to realize that half the country isn't devoted to the downfall of society like you thought them to be!

My political thought has shifted a bit over the past year. While I was devoted to unregulated capitalism, I saw economic efficiency as among the greatest goods. A question, though: what good is economic efficiency when policies are in place that only allow a small percentage of society to enjoy it? Society does best when everyone is given the opportunity to succeed. Granted, success ultimately lies within and with what one does with that opportunity, but it strikes me as fundamentally wrong that some never get the chance in the first place. Furthermore, I've come to realize that seeing things that way does not make me a "Marxist" per se (of course, I've also come to see that most Marxists are not the rotten people I had earlier believed them to be!) In short, a big part of what snapped me out of the mindset I was in was when I stopped saying, "This cannot be done" and started asking, "How can we do these things to make life better for everyone?"

As a Republican, I was under the mistaken notion that I was supporting small government. In retrospect, I can see how gravely mistaken I was: there is nothing "small government" about the Republican Party. It is perhaps only recently that I began paying attention to how much they really play on people's fears to build the most insidious "big government" programs this country has ever seen! I also began to see that liberalism does not necessarily support big government. Liberals have traditionally championed government programs, but those programs have been responsible for empowering individuals to take control of their own lives! They say that if you give a man a fish he will eat well for a day, but if you teach that man how to fish, he will eat well his entire life... but what good is knowing how to fish if you don't have a fishing pole, and your only option is to go work for the fishing company down the road that only gives you enough in exchange for your labor to get a day's worth of food?

As for where I am now? I stopped going to Church on a regular basis about a year or two ago. I considered myself Catholic in name for a while, but I don't even know if I am that anymore. I'd best describe myself as a deist now. Perhaps God is best known by studying the world around us, and the best miracles are those that come about when we serve eachother. It's a much more "liberating" view of the world. I don't have a problem with civil unions anymore (let's face it, it's a legal necessity). The hardest issue for me is abortion, but I suppose part of what opened my mind in the first place was in realizing that the best way to deal with that issue is to educate people, to provide solutions for women that want to have the child but cannot afford to do so, and to simply not worry about what women decide to do with their own bodies. I might not like it but it is their own choice.

At any rate, I apologize for the length of this post. Many of these thoughts were a long time coming and I simply wanted the opportunity to put them forward. As I said earlier, I am enjoying this site quite a bit so far. I only hope I can be a valuable contributor here."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4167255&mesg_id=4168602

This confirms almost all freepers are

1) Young, therefore impressionable.

2) Around 30 something or younger therefore easily deceived by media.

3) Can be turned around, but very rarely.

But you have to hand it to them....They 39% or what not that trust Bush absolutely, can be taught...When they realize that the brainwashing will lead them to their deaths. I hope hcocdr has woken up to this, do you think its even possible? Could close to 80% of the country turn against this blowhard and see the Cheney-PNAC cabal for what it is?

Doug E.



Comment #168: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 1:53pm ET...

This is scaring the crap out of me, if this source is backed up. If this is confirmed than that means this is how the next terror attack will initiate:

"Editor's note: Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin is an online, subscription intelligence news service from the creator of WorldNetDaily.com – a journalist who has been developing sources around the world for almost 30 years. The subscription price for the premium newsletter has been slashed in half and is now available for only $9.95 per month.

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON – As London recovers from the latest deadly al-Qaida attack that killed at least 50, top U.S. government officials are contemplating what they consider to be an inevitable and much bigger assault on America – one likely to kill millions, destroy the economy and fundamentally alter the course of history, reports Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

According to captured al-Qaida leaders and documents, the plan is called the "American Hiroshima" and involves the multiple detonation of nuclear weapons already smuggled into the U.S. over the Mexican border with the help of the MS-13 street gang and other organized crime groups. "

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45203

Son of a gun, I no longer have the ability to doubt such reports are true..And you realize why, don't you!???

Before our own defense department and Central Intelligence Agency agents would know everything about this. They would report any means of terrorism to americans and abroad making us feel safer. Before that is, Valerie Plame, Jane Doe and all the NOCs had their cover blown.

Before that is, Brewster Jennings was liquidated. You do realize that Dick Cheney saw to B-Jennings liquidation, in an even worse abuse of power than seen in Bourne Identity.

This would mean the USA is as blind as a bat running around in its shit, to find nukes. We can't track nukes. We aren't able to catch nuke bombers because of this. They could have smuggled nukes across from mexico.

May god help us all if this is happening, christ...

Doug E.



Comment #169: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 1:53pm ET...

Doug:
Wow, I am overwhelmed by your story and want to thank you so much for sharing it with us! I can only hope there are many more like you :) Blessings on you...



Comment #170: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 1:53pm ET...

Comment #164: Lemon
This is the first that I've heard this.

I am aware of receivership status primarily motivated by economic factors. Similar to what Roosevelt did with the 'bank holiday' to prevent chaos.

General Motors and Ford have both been put in to receivership status at this point.

I cannot verify your claims right now but, I will do further research on this matter.



Comment #171: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 1:58pm ET...

May I remind everyone that al-Qaida is American made.

The object is to scare the hell out of you! You remain the victim and allow Martial Law to be ushered in; this is exactly was is required as a respnse from you.

Fear is not the correct response.



Comment #172: Sandra said on 7/23/05 @ 2:01pm ET...

I have to go... I'm late already for an event.

Please try to remain calm.

Don't drink the water (arsenic) filtered and bottled is better for you; and don't have anything surgically (V-chip) implanted.



Comment #173: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 2:02pm ET...

I'm not afraid in that way. I'm afraid of the depravity in the minds of this network of evil.

The depravity in the minds of those like Cheney, who have allowed this!

It is positively revolting. What I'm saying is if a nuke is detonated inside the USA, we are powerless to prevent it now because the CIA has been damaged.

If a nuke goes off killing a million people, we can't stop it. And that is deplorable. We can't be afraid as that is their only weapon.

But we have to counter them, because we all know Cheney isn't afraid to let nukes off here in order to Nuke Iran.

Doug E.



Comment #174: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 2:07pm ET...

#161 Thierry

One comment I have is that you do understand what the internet is all about. There is truth and lies all over. There is Truth and desinformation. Sometimes both mixed together. This is a thick maze for Dummies.

The NESARA story is long and complex. There have been also many twists and turns. You need to make extensive readings and research to understand what is going on. There are also different levels of understanding that MUST be incorporated in your research. There is a strong occult/spiritual facet to it.
The Earth allies (white knights) were supposed to get to the announcement. However, it proved to be impossible because of the unceasing games, tricks of the Dark to thwart the announcement.
In April, they played with the Emergency Network System.
Do you remember the state of Pensylvania emergency broadcast going off? Do you remember the electricity black out on the east coast?

The NESARA was under Gag Order. Nobody knew about it except the ones involved. However, in the late 90's there were leaks in Naval Intelligence. Then it was decided to put up a web site updated by the "Dove". At this point, the Dark had no option but to talk about it. So what they did is made up an falacious acronym and debunked all NESARA true information. They even that far saying that this law was never voted by Congress. This is a lie.
The NESARA was voted at Christmas 1999 I believe, late at night. Only few true american Congressmen/women bravely passed this law. I know that Navy Seals went to each congress person without notice and pick them up to drive them to Congress. This is an amazing story. You would not believe the type of precautions they took to avoid the Illuminati to twart their plans.

Higher forces are now in charge of the NESARA announcement since May. This includes the Ascended Master St Germain and the Galactic Federation of Light.

This is why I repeat again and again to be open minded. Because what is about to happen will be consternation for many.



Comment #175: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 2:14pm ET...

Lemon,

I find that to be one of the more astounding conspiracy theories but I'm not ready to discount it.

Is there information on the house vote for NESARA, and the plan? Sources?

It's an official US site, so I'm wondering....

One other thing: Has NESARA been fighting against this group?
http://www.seekgod.ca/cnp/ They=Council of National Policy, referred to as "Fellowship" and originally called The Family. Same individuals as illuminati groups,Christian Mafia who signed a deal with PNAC ten years ago.

Doug E.



Comment #176: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 2:37pm ET...

Doug,

The house vote and the Supreme Court filling numbers are protected because of the gag order. I also know that the Suprem Court specific file number has been changed a couple of times to prevent any unwanted persons to find it.

The NESARA.com and NESARA.org have been put up by the Bush Administration and covert agents to cleverly disinform, mislead the populace. Quatloos is also one of their other websites.

However, the official NESARA.US web site is just here to get the message accross that NESARA is real and alive. The Dove reports are also designed for this.

The true action is taking place elswhere: in higher realms, in the army, in the US government where operate white knights. (double agents)
There is an OCCULT group, coalition of powerful people in the US who are working behind the scene to get the NESARA announced.
The strategic decisions are now - as I said - in the hands of St Germain and the GFL.

Now we must carry on our work to expose the lies of the Bush administration because it is helping a lot others to wake up.
The momentum for Truth is getting exponential now.



Comment #177: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 2:40pm ET...

Lemon,

Very interesting. Could Sibel Edmonds be a white night along with her contingency group?

They have a gag order affixed on them regarding 9/11 and the ARAMCO drug deals. Can you shed any light on Edmonds?

Doug E.



Comment #178: Ohiodem1 said on 7/23/05 @ 2:56pm ET...

Please Conyers Bloggers, don't get yourselves all tied up in an unprovable conspiracy theory that is beyond belief.

Do not forget that there is plenty of open source news and results of work that people like Rep. Conyers and others like Fitzpatric have obtained through sworn testimony that implicates many in the Bush admin in what appear to be lies and coverups.

Remember how much effort has been expended to create the timeline with provable facts and dates. Remember the brief from The_Man, and how much work he has expended, and is still expending. Think about how hard you worked. Do not be distracted from the real issues, the real transgressions of the Bush administration.

Let's focus on the birds in hand of Rovegate, and Coingate, and other real investigations that are uncovering massive waste, fraud and corruption. We will clean this government misfeasance, malfeasance and nonfeasance through constitutional processes in our courts and the ballot box.

Let's work for a Landslide next November. The Republicans can only steal about 1 to 2 per cent of the votes, they cannot steal enough votes to overturn a landslide. Let's keep our eye on the ball.

NESARA seems to be too far out there to be credible. Keep thinking, keep thinking. Do not be taken in by wild conspiracy theories. This can be used to discredit those who blog here, and Rep. Conyers. That's my opinion. OD1



Comment #179: Thierry said on 7/23/05 @ 2:57pm ET...

Lemon,

on www.nesara.us, photo gallery area, why are the writings/logos on ALL the trucks consistently being blocked?



Comment #180: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 3:04pm ET...

Ohiodem1 #178, I understand your point. I think people are just venting a little due to concerns.
But, I also think it is time for us to investigate these "conspiracy theories." Like Rovegate and DSM.

Or maybe we should just ignore these as "wild" accusations?



Comment #181: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 3:06pm ET...

Doug,

It is relevant to wonder what the Sibel Edmonds' true role is. I do not know so much about her neither did I get occult info on this so I do not know. However, it is obvious that whistleblowers like her are probably part of a more coordinated coalition of leakers.

The earth allies have been working on a very complex plan in great secrecy to oust this dark cabal. We are right in the middle of the action. The DSM, Rove stories are apparently elements of this plan so that the Truth can go out..You cannot imagine what these illuminati have been attempting to stop the announcement of NESARA. It goes beyond our imagination. They tried everything including the nuclear option. This is why I am telling you there is outside interference/help to prevent potential disasters.
It is now under the control of the higher forces.

Why do you think they throw us Star Wars in the face with so much marketing propaganda? What is happening is exactly this: a fight between the Dark who wanted to take possession of planet earth and the Galactic Federation of Light who came here to help us to get out of this mess.



Comment #182: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 3:16pm ET...

Unbelievable,

" Yes, that is a mouthful, but just as the Watergate Hotel
was an unknown entity to most of the world, and now it is part of the common
lexicon; Brewster Jennings and Associates was unknown to most of the world, but
soon this will be rectified. The outing of this most important CIA cover company;
perhaps the most important CIA operation ever, has done many times the damage
of outing a single agent.

The outing of Valerie Plame was not only for petty vengeance. It halted Brewster
Jennings investigation of the missing $9billion dollars from the Iraq war, the connection between 9/11 and the Saudi money, the proliferation of WMD's across
the globe, and the connection between the Saudi royal family's banker Khalid bin Mahfouz who bailed out George W.'s Harken Energy in 1987 with $25 million.
The same people who were in place for the Iran-Contra scandal, have been returned to power. That money was laundered through Aramco, the Saudi oil
company; as is suspected of the missing $9 billion.

Valerie Plame and Karl Rove are just the tip of the iceberg."

http://edschultz.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=244

Who is the original source that knows about what Brewster-Jennings was doing? I've heard the damage assessment report is incredibly damning.

Its looking more and more likely, Cheney destroyed the whole thing to hide his hidden hand in 9/11. Also imposed the Sibel edmonds gag for this reason too.

Unbelievable.
Doug E.



Comment #183: Lemon said on 7/23/05 @ 3:18pm ET...

#179 Thierry

I did not notice it, you're right.
Well, my guess it that it was showing the name of the Advertising company. So they probably hide it so that the Company would not be swamped of calls to get confirmation of this campaign.
There may be other reasons..I do not know.



Comment #184: gcm said on 7/23/05 @ 3:21pm ET...

Sandra, ref. #120, we now have a new name for you know who... NO D for NO DECERNABLE INTELLEGENCE. Here is a little keyboard thing for him (o)



Comment #185: Ohiodem1 said on 7/23/05 @ 3:23pm ET...

Dawn #180 - DSMinutes and Rovegate are real and approaching their own critical mass or maybe better term, tipping point. These are not, in my view conspiracy theories, but birds in hand, and they are ready to do some real good.

No radical judges, no non-diplomatic diplomats, no wrecking of Social Security, no more wars will start while trials are on-going. This should be our focus, and I believe, it is Rep. Conyers focus.

Anyone who wants to chase conspiracy theories is welcome to follow them to their heart's content. I have seen in the pages of this blog, people trying to say who shot Kennedy. That happened 42 years ago, and no matter what you find out, the end result is that John Kennedy is still dead. Let's focus on what we can seriously impact.

We can seriously impact DSMinutes. We can seriously impact Rovegate. We can seriously impact Coingate, which I believe will reach into the White House, and potentially will illuminate 2004 voter fraud in Ohio. This thing is blowing up here, and it stinks, and it will get on a lot of Republicans.

Focus on the here and now. Let's get 2000 through 2005 corruption, lies, graft, deceptions. That's all I am saying. OD1

Off to Conyers house party. Enjoy.



Comment #186: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 3:28pm ET...

#163 Doug, anyone can get a .us IP addy. All it takes is a few bucks per month to register. No official sanctions required.

If there was any vote in the House or the Senate, there would be a record of it. Neither house has anything like 'secret votes'. They all go on record or they do not go to the White House.



Comment #187: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 3:42pm ET...

#182, did'nt I mention the same thing once already?

Yeah,

Comment #32: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/19/05 @ 2:29pm ET...

Interesting.
While reading the first paragraph of #29 it occurred to me that there may be a second, more ominous, reason for outing Valerie Plame.

We already know that Bush Jr.'s failed business attempts were mostly funded with Saudi money. We already know of many connections between the Saudi royal family and Bush Sr. We already know of the Saudi's flown out of America without being questioned by the FBI. (in truth, 30 out of 142 were questioned before departing)
The primary motive for outing Valerie Plame may not have been vengeance. It may have been to blind our intelligence so we would not know what the Saudis were doing. Once again, Bush Jr.'s primary character trait, the one reason why others tolerate him, is his absolute loyalty to his allies. It could be that Bush Sr. had Rove blow Valerie Plame's cover in order to have Brewster Jennings & Associates dismantled. This may or may not have been at the behest of the Saudi royal family and it may or may not have left the CIA completely blinded to the workings of ARAMCO, but it certainly would have dealt a major blow to the enemy of Bush Jr.'s ally.

Hmmm. Looks like you folks found another reason for dismantling BJ&C.



Comment #188: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 3:45pm ET...

Any bets on where the missing money trail goes?

I'll put a couple billion on ARAMCO.



Comment #189: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 3:46pm ET...

#185 Ohiodem1,
DSM and Rovegate are real because people demanded the attention. Don't you remember the "conspiracy" labels applied to them just a few weeks ago? How do you figure you got to this place called "bird in the hand?"

There are other issues, too, that demand attention -- so do not stop other people from bringing them forward.

That just means to you cherry-pick among the conspiracy theories and expecting others to follow your guidelines.

There are other issues demanding attention that are more serious than you apparently can imagine. If everyone doesn't begin to get a healthy respect for a 9/11 coverup and the reasons behind it, and an ability to question, we might not get another election. It just depends on how much time we have.



Comment #190: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 3:47pm ET...

I would replace Bush Senior with Cheney....

Not even Bush Senior would do it, he believes those who expose our officers of intelligence are always, the most insidious of traitors

Cheney though...And a big ARAMCO Halliburton oil deal, along with weapons contract...He'd get his cake and eat it too. Especially in a planned strike to destroy the coutnry later.

Doug E.



Comment #191: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 3:51pm ET...

Dawn,

Thank you for touching on this. Remember Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney has also co-chaired a re-opening of the 9/11 investigation yesterday. Several congress members joined her.

I also agree that NESARA can not be ignored, it seems to me such things must be explored in addition to anything else.

Doug E.



Comment #192: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 3:55pm ET...

Doug, was Cynthia McKinney's meeting aired anywhere? Or on the web? Thanks.



Comment #193: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 3:55pm ET...

If I'm right, then JC's office will get a couple of packages from spoofed sources. One will be ticking, the other will be from the CIA.



Comment #194: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 4:01pm ET...

Dawn,

I believe it was aired on C-SPAN3 but I'll try to get a recent link.

Also everyone remember the case for removal from office:

http://www.tribweb.co.uk/ritter02082002.htm

The official foreign intelligence service quoted that the VC stockpiles of chemical agents were destroyed, and biological weapons. Most of all the WMD was just not ever there. The few chemical agents that were found, got used on Iraq along with depleted uranium. That right there is war crimes also.

All of the lies on Iraq came from this, which is sourced from the Niger-Bolivia Yellowcake lies. There is no question, they were sloppy. And the road for removal is nigh.

Doug E.



Comment #195: gcm said on 7/23/05 @ 4:08pm ET...

Regarding Lemon's posts. Have any of you ever read Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood"s End? Sounds familiar to me. Lemon, who is the 'Overseer'? What is the "something wonderful is going to happen" thing? You talking the Rapture, a.k.a. Armageddon?

#182 Doug, really don't know how anyone could have heard about the damage report from the Plame affair as that would be at least "Top Secret, Eyes Only".

I see where other people have come to the same conslusion that I did regarding the Pentagon swallowing a Boeing 757 and 42,400 pounds of fuel. It just didn't happen that way.



Comment #196: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 4:15pm ET...

gcm, of course others came to the same conclusion. We saw the evidence and some of us actually use our gray matter regardless of what we are told.
Missiles don't have landing gear, but Raptors do. A raptor went missing from the Air Force inventory just a few months before 911. They claim it was lost in Afganistan, but there were no reports on the matter released to the public to prove this claim.

The wheel found among the wreckage was generally a match both in size and geometry. So I concluded it was probably a raptor loaded with explosives. Not a missile.



Comment #197: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 4:17pm ET...

Besides, a missile would not have knocked over the light poles. A raptors wings would have.



Comment #198: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 4:24pm ET...

Jay, so where are the missing people who were on the boing?



Comment #199: Seth Cowen said on 7/23/05 @ 4:49pm ET...

"Do you think John Kerry, Chuck Hagel or anyone else even REALIZE whats at stake here?"

Yes I do think John Forbes Kerry has always know what is going on.

Kerry's role was to pruposely lose the election, and then quickly concede defeat to Bush. Kerry is still a Senator though.

I don't know Chuck Hagel, but John Rockefeller is still Standard/ARAMCO as far as I can tell.

I sure hope Americans can accept the truth and do something about it before it is to late.

A word of caution though:

We must not overreact becaue that is what they want. If we resort to Anarchy or any such thing. then the Terrorists in our government will have an excuse to unleas Marshal Law, and put us all in tent camps surrounded by barbed wire.

Think of Manchurian Global and how the good hard working Americans in our government are doing the job we want them to do, and they will help us bring justice to AMerica and the World.

Things could get very shaky, very soon,so we need to stay calm and clear headed. We need to stick to the truth.

God Bless America

Forgive us of our sins and help us to right our wrongs and remove deception from our lives. God please show the American people the truth before it is too late to do anything about it.



Comment #200: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 5:00pm ET...

Seth, your point about Kerry may well be true as I understand he's a member of S&B also.



Comment #201: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 5:20pm ET...

Good question. How it could have been pulled off is quite the mystery. There are other questions as well.

How can one pull a dissappearing act with a 757 in mid flight. Both radar and visually.
Who would do such a thing and why attack the pentagon at all? The FBI or CIA buildings would have been better targets for Al Quaida.

Making people disappear is easy. Making a 757 disappear is a bit more problematic.

The ground controllers said it fell off the radar a couple of miles from the pentagon. But if it did not hit the building, then it would have had to continue flying somewhere. It did not show up on radar later on so there is strong evidence counter to my conclusions.

However, it still does not account for the fact that not a single piece of luggage or body part was verifiably found. A 757 has very large solidly built engines. Even in that kind of impact, the solidly built engine generators, each weighing a couple of hundred pounds, would have remained largely intact. But not a single piece was found. Additionally, the landing gear is very solidly built to support the weight of a multi ton aircraft landing on them (not all landing are nice and smooth). It would not have disintegrated even if slammed against a steel beam at 400 MPH. There was none found.
The damage to the building due to it's hardening is consistent with a missile strike. It is reminiscent of the hole made by a missile against a hardened bunker. However, a 757 is not a missile in that it is mostly hollow. It would have splattered against the side of the building without a great amount of penetration.
Look again at the second aircraft hitting the twin towers. You will notice that it goes right through the building, but you can tell that the verticle beams of the building cut the aircraft to ribbons. Now the pentagon was hardened so the entire walls resembled that of the steel beams of the WTC. And even with this, we get penetration all the way to the fourth ring. This supports the missile theory as long as it was a missile specially designed to hit hardened targets, but a jet powered unmanned surveilance aircraft loaded with high explosives could do the same thing and also take down the light poles evident in images of the parking lot after the incident. A missile would not knock down the lights.
But even at maximum speed after a dive, a 757 would have been on at least one frame of the video the pentagon released. The fact that it did not means either the aircraft was travelling so fast it would have disintegrated from the stress on the airframe, or it was much smaller than a 757 or both.
Another bit of evidence is that a 757 would have had to come out of a steep dive and travel over the highway, then dive again to travel only inches from the ground without actually touching it before hitting the first floor of the pentagon. That kind of flying of a jumbo jet would be 'merely' impossible for a new pilot who's instructors did not think he could fly a small private aircraft, let along a multi engine jumbo jet.

Now on to the conspiracy stuff.
All the videotape all around the pentagon was confiscated and never released despite multiple FOIA requests and even a lawsuit. What could be on those tapes that the pentagon does not want released to the public? One of many possible answers is that it shows it was one of their own aircraft.
However, I cannot rule out the possibility that the aircraft in question was a fighter jet. The solid construction of fighter jets would account for the damage and the high speed. It would disintegrate against the hardened building similarly to the way one would if it 'augured' into the ground at high speed; leaving a deep hole with only small pieces of aircraft left over. However, in order to create a hole with the diameter we see at the pentagon, it would have to be fully armed with air to ground ordinance. It would account for the size and geometry of the wheel. One would knock the light pole down and account for the phenomenal maneuvering at high speed as well. But I tend to discount this theory since it would have to be a manned jet. And that person would have to know he was going to die.

But still, there's the problem of a missing 757 from view and from radar to contend with.

Conclusion: I don't have all the answers. But I have good reason to believe the pentagon was not hit by a 757.

All this would be moot had the pentagon simply released all the videotape and photographs of all the aircraft related wreckage to the public. Smothering it all in a cloak of secrecy guaranteed alternate theories. That this may have been their intention in the first place is not lost upon me.



Comment #202: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 5:29pm ET...

Well here it is.

Cynthia McKinney re-opens 9/11 investigation

By BOB KEMPER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

"Washington — Revisiting the issue that helped spur her ouster from Congress three years ago, Rep. Cynthia Mc Kinney led a Capitol Hill hearing Friday on whether the Bush administration was involved in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

The eight-hour hearing, timed to mark the first anniversary of the release of the Sept. 11 commission's report on the attacks, drew dozens of contrarians and conspiracy theorists who suggest President Bush purposely ignored warnings or may even have had a hand in the attack — claims participants said the commission ignored.

"The commission's report was not a rush to judgment, it was a rush to exoneration," said John Judge, a member of Mc Kinney's staff and a representative of a Web site dedicated to raising questions about the Sept. 11 commission's report.

The White House and the commission have dismissed such questions as unfounded conspiracy theories."

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/0705/23natmckinney.html

Congress still investigating the "real" story of what happened 9/11

Doug E.



Comment #203: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 5:40pm ET...

Something is wrong with the official 9/11 Pentagon attack scenario. But I'm skeptical of some of the conspiracy theories I've heard.

On the one hand, I have never heard ANYONE offer an eyewitness account in which they describe seeing an American Airlines 757 take suicide dive into the Pentagon.

I lived in Washington D.C. in 1989-90 and went past the Pentagon every morning, as do thousands of other commuters. Hundreds if not thousands of people would have noticed a passenger jet flying so low at such a high speed and crashing into the Pentagon.

Has anyone read about or seen on TV any eyewitness accounts of the Pentagon "attack"?

On the other hand, as Bill noted, what happened to the passengers on that American Airlines flight? The wife of Ted Olson, a prominent Republican, was listed as a passenger on that flight.

One could speculate that some preplanned explosion was detonated at the Pentagon and that those AA passengers were flown off to some destination and eliminated to silence them.

But why would these alleged right wing plotters choose a flight that had a prominent Republican's wife on it? They could have chosen any of several other flights to pin a fake attack on.

I seem to remember that Ted Olson's wife took a different flight that morning than the one she had been booked on. So she could have been an inadvertant victim of the plot, if there was one.

Or maybe Ted just agreed to take one for the team, and had a mistress lined up to take over for his departed wife.

At any rate, no complex plot, as a 9/11 plot would have been, ever turns out as planned.

I remember reading a lot of commentary about the reek of burning jet fuel that hung over the area after the explosion. That's a persuasive indication that it was a jet crash.

Another thing to remember is that there was very llittle left of the United 757 that crashed in Pennsylvania. All rescuers found was a smoking hole in the ground and tiny shredded pieces of wreckage. Based on that, it's logical to accept that there would have been very little left of the 757 that hit the Pentagon.

Airliners are fragile. They're basically airframe covered with aluminum or composite skin. They're filled with fuel. When they hit something at 400 plus MPH there's never much left to look at.

The two crashes into the WTC were definitely a United 767 and an American 767. That's been confirmed by thousands of eyewitnesses and video.

I believe that 9/11 was an Al Qaeda plot. It's possible the right wingers let it happen in order to exploit it and pursue hidden agendas. I wouldn't put that past them at all.

But there's something wrong with the Pentagon attack, mainly because there don't seem to be any eyewitness accounts of the final descent and impact of AA 757.

Maybe there are sources that describe eyewitness accounts of the apparent 757 crash into the Pentagon, but I haven't ever seen any. That's the main reason I'm skeptical about the official version of the Pentagon attack.

But some other form of explosion at the Pentagon, triggered by right wing plotters, doesn't make much sense to me either. If these right wing plotters were able to orchestrate two airline crashes into the WTC, it seems that they would also be able to orchestrate an airliner crash into the Pentagon.

Why do it a different way at the Pentagon?



Comment #204: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 5:48pm ET...

"Why do it a different way at the Pentagon?"

Ask PNAC. Dick Cheney's own NORAD program was running 9/11 induced terrorism drills the entire time, while "Al-Quaeda" was suiting up.

High level officials have testified to Karl Schwarz, and David Ray Griffin has confirmed Cheney & Wolfowitz knew directly of the attacks and even authorized them. This is first hand, eye-witness accounts.

True, George Bush has no legal implication in the case because he never even knew what happened. He was not briefed on anything regarding 9/11....Only ignored a few FBI intel reports.

The entire 9/11 scam, ala NORAD drills was to prepare an agenda which PNAC would enact using "President" Bush: That agenda is spelled out in full detail on their non-profit website. The world trade center destruction was just what they needed, a new pearl harbor event. Then Iraq could be toasted.

But beyond that, it is believed Cheney and several dissenters helped the attacks on the Pentagon.....To then immediately elevate Rumsfeld, Cheney's friend position. And directly after that to install Larry Franklin and chief neocons which would make the Pentagon "safer".....Exscuse for the directly added patriot act.

Doug E.



Comment #205: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 5:55pm ET...

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, Jay. You make a lot of good points. There is something wrong with the 757 scenario at the Pentagon. But it seems pretty risky for right wing plotters to hit the Pentagon with a military aircraft or missile in broad daylight.

They could easily have hit the Pentagon with explosives on the night of 9/11, after it got dark. No one would have seen anything, so they could have achieved the Pentagon part of their plot without any risk at all.

If these right wingers really wanted to arouse Americans to fury so they could invade the Middle East, etc, they could have taken out a bunch of major American targets on the night of 9/11 with any kind of explosions they wanted to, and blamed it on Al Qaeda sabateurs.



Comment #206: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 6:07pm ET...

Man, Rep. Conyers! This place is moonbat central now!

You must be very proud!

*snickers*

:o)



Comment #207: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 6:29pm ET...

You make a lot of good points, too, Doug, regarding what these fascists are capable of doing and ARE doing.

But it seems to me that if the right wingers wanted to gain overwhelming public support for a massive American military intervention in the Middle East, they could easily have orchestrated multiple Al Qaeda "sabotage" attacks on the night of 9/11, thus inflicting tens of thousands of additional casualties.

In the wake of such unprecedented carnage on American soil, they could have imposed a Patriot Act on Steroids, hit Iraq, Iran, Syria, et al with massive airstrikes, had ground troops ready for occupation duties, and could achieved all of their PNAC agenda much more quickly.

These PNAC thugs are criminals and traitors, but they're not stupid. I just don't see why they would have orchestrated a relatively limited attack on America on 9/11, when they could have killed 100,000 people by hitting several other targets.

Had they done this, they wouldn't have had to lie and scheme their way into an Iraq war, or anything else. The American people would have given them carte blanche to do just about anything they wanted to do.



Comment #208: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 6:32pm ET...

Funny how trolls like NO DUmmie seem to regard everything as conspiracy theory, but yet still keep coming here...

I think freepers are slowly waking up from their denial as impossible as it is to believe. Remember for reference, The Quizzical Toad that I quoted above.

It takes a certain amount of wakeup from the Dream to realize this cabal has used you....Abused you, and would like to have you die.

I think it is hardest for those of us who are young, and rely on the propaganda pulled by Sean Hannity and company daily. It must be most hardest for them, as they have depended on it like education.

As these free republicans wake up we must enlighten them with the "truth", that their elders have long started to accept...Painfully too. 60% of america believes world war III may be coming, as a result of this.

That's what we have to stop now in this time.
Doug E.



Comment #209: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 6:36pm ET...

Rusty,

The problem is they didn't. Al-Quaeda pulled off 9/11 and Cheney was surprised that they struck so fast.

But the pentagon attacks were staged, authorized and ordered by Cheney. Those were from the NORAD drills and CIA officers have testified on the account.

Now Cheney could have said to Al-Quaeda at some point "bring it on" or maybe "we want you to attack us" but....He would have done a far more robust attack had it been all his plan. He just wanted a pearl harbor, didn't matter how..

Pentagon is what the military was involved in. Killing of republican senate families was just collatoral damage.

Doug E.



Comment #210: gcm said on 7/23/05 @ 6:38pm ET...

#203 Rusty, that site I put up a couple of days ago has a news clip where one person is telling the reporter that "It was definately an American Airlines 757, no question..."

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pentagon121.swf



Comment #211: NO DUmmie said on 7/23/05 @ 6:43pm ET...

#210

Rut roh, now you've done it!

Facts.

Conspiracy theorist hates facts!

:o)

Not to forget, all the wreckage found inside the Pentagon that was from a 757.



Comment #212: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:53pm ET...

Sorry for the delay, I was almost done writing when my son hit the escape key; resetting everything.

Please note that I do not make any claims as to who would do it. Only that there are serious abnormalities at the pentagon that are not explained with a 757 collision. Mainly because all the evidence released by the U.S. government obviously point to Al Qaida. However, good intelligence does not rely upon a single source without some compelling reason. But in this case, there were no compelling reasons and there is no other sources. So my colleagues and I could make no conclusions.

But, there is one more piece of data I forgot to mention, thank you Rusty.
Witnesses reported hearing a whooshing sound before the explosion. This is one of the major reasons for the missile theory. I have been around engine tests of bombers, tankers, passenger and cargo jets, as well as many fighter and fighter/bomber jets as well as the SR-71. I often joke that my hearing is 100%. (60% in one ear and 40% in the other) A large multi engine passenger jet at full throttle can cause hearing loss in less than a minute if you are unprotected. Those with their windows down would have been thunderstruck. Witnesses stated they heard a whooshing sound. That is far more consistent with a missile, but it could also have been a twin engine jet fighter, or a much more quieter unmanned jet aircraft. However, when the first alternative theories came out, more witnesses suddenly appeared who claimed they saw the jumbo jet. However, some of those witnesses were proven to be not at the scene at the time. A bunch of liars discredited the whole lot. Of the rest, most of them worked for the military in some capacity and were also discredited. However, it's not coincidence that most of the people around the pentagon at any given moment work for the military. It's entirely possible that these people were improperly discredited. My colleagues disagreed with this logic, however; which has bugged me ever since.

And if you take a look at the Pennsylvania site, there was plenty of large pieces all around the sight. Some of those pieces were the larger than a man. But the pentagon hand only two pieces larger than a man. One was covered up and classified, the other was a wheel that does not fit the size and geometry of a 757's landing gear.

But that still does not explain how a 757 could disappear from both sight and radar in mid flight. Perhaps someone should interview David Copperfield and see how he did it because my colleagues and I failed to find any possible way.

My IQ is about 125 and I'm considered the dumb one among my colleagues. So if anyone can answer that mystery must be a freaking ubermenche.



Comment #213: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 6:55pm ET...

NoDummy, I base all my theories upon the available facts. I hate the absence of facts. Therefore, I take your comment as a compliment.



Comment #214: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 7:18pm ET...

Thanks, Doug and gcm.

I'll check that AA 757 eyewitness link. Perhaps a lot of other eyewitnesses weren't interviewed by the media at the time because it was universally accepted that the Pentagon attack involved an airliner, just like the WTC attacks.

Then again, maybe there weren't any eyewitnesses to an AA 757 attack because there wasn't one. Who knows if the eyewitness at this link is legit? I'm going to do a Google search on Pentagon attack eyewitnesses and see if I can find more.

I'd like to find several documented eyewitness accounts of a 757 hitting the Pentagon, and go from there. But if there's only one or two, that would be very hard to believe.

I've been studying the JFK assassination for a long time, and that's a Machiavellian mess, just like 9/11. There were CIA, Mafia, and FBI plots and coverups and blunders all over the place.

Dozens of people in all sorts of different capacities, from Oswald clear up to Hoover, Dulles, and perhaps even LBJ in Washington, were pursuing agendas regarding JFK that coincided at times and conflicted at times.

In addition, Mafia godfathers had their agendas, Castro had his agendas, and anti-Castro Cubans had their agendas. The hawks at the Pentagon had their agendas, Southern bigots had their agendas, and the KGB was dragged into this witch's brew because of Oswald's time in the USSR.

I think 9/11 unfolded the same way. Some PNAC agendas coincided with some Al Qaeda agendas, but some were also in conflict, depending in the issues. Toss in all of the unforeseen factors and we've got another Machiavellian mess.

The bottom line for me is that all right wing extremists are our enemy today, regardless of their country, religion, or culture.



Comment #215: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 7:30pm ET...

What made wtc #7 building collapse is what's always bothered me about it. No plane struck it. anyone know why?
i read where it was "pulled" but why, and how did they have time to set explosives after #1 and 2's event?



Comment #216: Doug Eldritch said on 7/23/05 @ 7:39pm ET...

Bill,

Someone in PNAC pulled Building 7 according to Karl Schwarz. I think he is very credible given the scientific reports. It was not demolished with a plane, but after the structures were destroyed(possibly earlier than the alleged attack) a single blast to the building, brought the entire thing down.

I heard PNAC wanted to cripple the US wall street brokers economically, so that is why they ordered all the secret stock trade deals the day before. This would give them capital to invade the middle east. But it had nothing to do with Al-Quaeda's plan it seems.

Doug E.



Comment #217: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 7:58pm ET...

Doug, yes I heard similar accounts that Silverstein authorized the imploding of #7 for ssfety reasons was the reported reason.
But I wonder, if it went down round 5 pm as reported, why and why wasn't it reported as such? I heard the insurance payoff was over 7 billion. Is that accurate?
Was it dependant on all three being destroyed? It's all too suspicious!
I heard somewhere that the CIA may have had moles infiltrated into Al Qaeda. If so and they reported to Cheney and the PNAC cabal that this 9/11 was their plan, it could be that they knew it and allowed it to happen to further their agenda.
Sorry, Not as ellegant or structured a writer as you guys.



Comment #218: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 7:59pm ET...

I watched the video again and noticed a couple of things.

The reports of a private jet is consistent with my unmanned reconnaisance jet theory as a URJ is slightly smaller and roughly the same geometry as a private jet, however, this does not support the missile theory unless one considers the size and geometry of a large cruise missile on the order of the silkworm. However, no American cruise missiles are capable of carrying a a payload large enough to do the damage we see at the pentagon, and our cruise missiles are not capable of penetrating a hardened target. They are best against non hardened targets such as regular buildings and bridges. So if it was a cruise missile, it had to be of non-American design such as the Chinese silkworm.

It's amazing how a detail can change everything. The video says the aircraft disappeared from radar 45 minutes before impact. After I post this, I plan on spending some time verifying this. Even for a fighter aircraft, this is a long time to fly at an altitude less than 400 feet; low enough to escape detection from radar, through the mountainous terrain of West Virginia, eh, Rusty? Ever been there? Those mountains may not be the same size as the rockies, but they are practially straight up and straight down for a couple of hundred feet, leaving only a couple of hundred feet between radar and ground. Pretty amazing feat for a pilot who's instructors did not think should fly airplanes at all. I'd put the chances somewhere between slim and hell freezing over.

Conclusion, it must have landed shortly after leaving radar. Does anyone know it's location when it disappeared from radar? Any places for a large aircraft to land? It was not over any air force facility was it? The closest I can place the aircraft at the moment it dropped off radar based upon the image of the flight path on the video is somewhere in the vicinity of Greenup KY. Another fact that must be verified.

Wherever it landed, if indeed it landed, would have been somewhat private. No public airport would have been able to keep it hush hush. So we're looking for a large private or govt strip near the site of it's disappearing from radar. Ostensively near greenup KY.



Comment #219: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 8:07pm ET...

45 minutes and there wasn't time to scramble jets to the scene? C'mon.....seems to many circumstances were just right for al qaeda to pull it off!



Comment #220: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 8:27pm ET...

...nodummie is awfully quiet regarding WTC 7. A 'facts' problem?

...and what wreckage outside of the Pentagon might that be?



Comment #221: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 8:30pm ET...

Thank you again for the interesting comments, Jay. I haven't really researched any of this very much, I was just tossing in some possibilities, the pursuit of which might clarify some things.

If I remember correctly, there were reports that phone calls were made from the AA 757, particularly one or two calls from Barbara Olsen, describing a hijacking.

These reports could be bogus, but if there are documented calls from that plane that have been or could be verified by an objective source, especially Barbara Olsen's call, it would be pretty persuasive evidence that there was an AA 757 hijacked that morning.

When I lived in Washington, neither me nor anyone else paid much attention to all of the airliners flying into and out of National every few minutes. National is close to the Pentagon, so people in that area are accustomed to airliners on full power climbing out of National on takeoff. Jets on takeoff are loud, but everyone is so conditioned to the noise that a jet at full power near the Pentagon wouldn't have attracted undue notice.

That's something to consider when wondering about the dearth of eyewitnesses. One also has to consider that crashing an airliner into a target on the ground is much harder than just flying it into the WTC on a level approach or slight descent.

If the Pentagon attack was acutally due to a hijacker/pilot, it would make sense for him to reduce power significantly on a final approach to his target. He would already have been coming in at a very high speed to maximize the destructive impact and didn't need any more engine thrust.

By that time, his ultimate priority would have been hitting his target accurately, and he may have cut power completely to enhance his control of the aircraft.

A 757 basically gliding down the last couple thousand feet at 400 MPH wouldn't have attracted much notice. Very little noise, combined with the constant presence of airliners in the National/Pentagon area, would explain very few eyewitnesses.

There's still the radar issue, and other problematic issues you've raised about NORAD and 757 remnants, etc. But a whooshing sound would be compatible with an unpowered 757 gliding down at 400 MPH.



Comment #222: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 8:37pm ET...

The DUmmie never comes here offering substantive debate, he only comes to ridicule and make fun.
He's either a child or just a neocon lackey with low IQ! Just like those who posted comments on RightWingNews site I joined a week or two ago. They banned me for standing up to their drivle. Everyone there's comments were anti-liberal, anti democrat and no hard facts or questioning was allowed.
I thought the reason they started the passwords were to keep the trools away. Why's he still here?



Comment #223: gcm said on 7/23/05 @ 8:44pm ET...

Re parts of 757 found in the Pentagon. Don't think so. I have been around big commercial airliners for a long time. Been to a few loss of hull air disasters also. Doesn't match anything I have ever seen.



Comment #224: dawn said on 7/23/05 @ 8:50pm ET...

The '757' coming in a 400 MPH 20 feet off the ground would not only have broken ear drums -- but sucked automobiles into the engines.

The '757' (probably a drone) would've been off radar because they fly at an extremely high altitude. You can stay off of radar by high altitude, as well as low.

Odd, isn't it that the people from the Pentagon fight and Flight 93 were taken to the same lab to identify? Odd, that the plane at the Pentagon got hot enough to vaporize the plane, seats, engines, wings, luggage... but not over 100 degrees so they could identify everyone's DNA. Will wonders never cease?



Comment #225: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 8:53pm ET...

Bill #217,

What matters is that you are a straight-talking Carolinian who seeks the truth. You get your points across very well, so there's no need to apologize for your prose.

Except for Hank, no one on this blog has won a Nobel Prize for Literature lately, so just write like you're talking to us. It works fine.



Comment #226: gcm said on 7/23/05 @ 8:57pm ET...

#224 dawn, here is something to consider: 42,400 lbs. of JP7 would have done a tad more fire damage that what is apparant in the images I've seen. But hell Kool Aid drinkers know better. I defer to the blog experts that never offer a scintilla of evidence.



Comment #227: Bill_o_Carolina said on 7/23/05 @ 8:59pm ET...

Thanks Rusty, much appreciated!



Comment #228: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/23/05 @ 10:16pm ET...

Isn't it interesting how new information becomes easily available long after the fact?
Here is testimony to the piloting skills of the flight 77 hijacker.

Flight 77's transponder was turned off shortly after it disappeared from radar. Obviously, none of the hijackers would know how to do this as it requires entering in a security code. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the hijackers forced the pilots to fly the plane at least most of the way back to D.C. But there is some detail the video does not mention.

Burlingame's family says he would not have given up the cockpit without a fight. If he were still in the cockpit, they say, he would not have been alive as the plane circled back from southern Ohio and flew toward the Pentagon.

Because the plane's transponder was turned off, it was hard for controllers to track the plane precisely, but ultimately the controller who cleared the plane out of Dulles watched his scope as the aircraft flew back toward Washington.

Authorities contend that Hanjour was at the controls and that the plane may have been on autopilot.

Personal note: that would mean the hijackers knew how to program the autopilot computer. This contention is base upon the theory that the lead hijacker was a Saudi who happened to be an experienced pilot, a theory disproven when the Saudi turned up in Saudi Arabia, alive and well. So the hijackers must have included someone else who was familiar with the systems of a 757. But we've been told that the rest of the hijackers were poor pilots at best. Besides, the families claim does not account to the fact that whoever turned off the transponder, knew the code.

Controllers say the plane crossed the Pentagon at 7,000 feet and then made a sweeping circle to the right, during which time it dropped down to near surface level.

Personal note: ATC was tracking the plane the entire 46 minutes. It was not trying to evade radar at all, according to the 911 commission report. But eveyone believes the initial reports that the aircraft disappeared from radar.
The plane went from 7000 feet AGL and made a 270 degree turn. Analysis Then it swept low over a traffic-jammed highway and slammed into the western face of the building at 9:45.

Now, this timeline makes it clear that the aircraft never really left radar. It's just that for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, the data was not transmitted to Indianapolis ATC. I would love to hear military ATC personel confirm or deny this. The problem there is that there were no Air Force bases anywhere near the flight path of flight 77 once it entered into West Virginia. But West Virginia does have an Air National Guard.

Therefore, it looks as if there were no time in which flight 77 actually disappeared from radar; providing no chance for a switch.

But once again, good intelligence never relies upon a single source unless there is compelling reason to do so. The 911 report on this matter is composed entirely of information gathered from the FAA. Perusing the 911 commission report shows a definite lack of the detail others attribute to it. So who is lying? The FBI and FAA, or everyone else?

However, I was mistaken on two points. When I said I thought it was a raptor, I was wrong. My memory of aircraft is slipping. I think it was more like the Global Hawk loaded with 2000 lbs of high explosives. Not much left after that baby blows. And I first said it disappeared only a few miles from the crash site. Not entirely the truth. It either disappeared an entire state away from the pentagon, or not at all, depending upon who you believe.

Quaint little world we live in, isn't it?

I can find the locations of public airports in the area in question, but I've never found a map of private landing strips, no matter the size.



Comment #229: gcm said on 7/23/05 @ 10:33pm ET...

Jay, do you know the tail number of the AA 757 that allegedly flew into the Pentagon? Have you come across it in your searches? As for the maps involved, what kind of maps are you talking about? FAA charts? You can get the FAA charts for the region(s) involved at your local airport where private pilots fly in and out of.



Comment #230: Rusty said on 7/23/05 @ 11:01pm ET...

gcm,

According to Airliners.net, the 757 involved in this controversy was N644AA (24602/365)

Its fleet number was #5BP.

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=N644AA&distinct_entry=true



Comment #231: Seth Cowen said on 7/23/05 @ 11:25pm ET...

I think a conspiracy theory more likey to be true involves, Standard/ARAMCO, of course the Bush's, and Skull and Bones, PNAC even.

One thoery is that the Rockefeller super think tanks and covert human studies, have given Standard/ARAMCO a means by which to create Terrorism on a mass scale.

I suspect that it is possible that the Suicide bombers are being trained,funded and supplied by a secret branch of Standard/ARAMCO.

Regular people in bad circumstances are taken advantage of and brainsoied into blowing themselves up. And with suicide bombers their is no one to trace back to. There is no one to arrest. THe most frustrating thing about 911 is that the people who were alledgedly responsible, died. There is no one to go after.

Without the continued threat of the Suicide bombers, and their terrorists, PNAC/STANDARD/ARAMCO/SKULLandBones,can not continue to keep the World in extreme fear. The power tripping police are driven by their own power trip, and they are also helping to perpetuate the Fascist take over of the World..

Isnt't it true that Senator John Rockefeller and The House of Bush and the House of Saad continue to make a fortune at the expense of the Saudi Arabian People's basic human rights?

Why don't people look at the big picture?

Greed and personal gain should not be an exuse to avoid the truth.



Comment #232: NO DUmmie said on 7/24/05 @ 12:56am ET...

Moon. Bat. Central.



Comment #233: Seth Cowen said on 7/24/05 @ 1:14am ET...

I do not give certain posters attention by responding to them.

I would like to point our for everyone though what a Notsee does when they are confronted with the truth, and no amount of twisted facts to refute it.

"Moon. Bat. Central".

Perfect example of a frustrated, brainsoiled,unfortunate person who chooses to NOT SEE the truth no matter how obvious it is. Or they could be a very frustrated person who knows what the truth is and does not want to do anything about it.

We don't need to dig up the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Yale" or any hard to prove conspiracies. There are mountains of evidence to prove the Standard/ARAMCO/PNAC/CARLYLSE Conspiracy.

For all our sake I hope that the people are No Dummies like Hitler said we are?

What exactly is a moon bat anyway?

How is moon. bat. relevant to this blog?



Comment #234: Thierry said on 7/24/05 @ 7:07am ET...

#233: Seth,

Bats are blind, and therefore a better analogy to notsee people like no dummie.



Comment #235: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/24/05 @ 9:13am ET...

Nothing of substance to contribute, again. No critique, no contribution, not even a side comment. No display of logic, or reason, or even argument.

I believe all this independent thought has brain damaged our troll. Now he cannot even string a complete sentence together.

Poor, poor troll. Return to your cage of neo-con control and let your handlers do the thinking for you. (pat, pat) Your world will be OK as long as you give yourself to them.



Comment #236: Genghis Khan said on 7/24/05 @ 4:52pm ET...

Folks:

Enough with the 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Please check the weight of a fully-fueled 757. Then estimate that the aircraft hit their targets at full speed (500+ mph). Even a cursory bit of Newtonian math clearly explains the amount of initial structural damage done to both the WTC towers and the Pentagon. Factor in the enormous fuel loads and the resultant fires and you quickly understand how any physical evidence which survived the initial impact would have been consumed in the conflagration.

Aircraft are meant to be strong in the air. They are NOT built to withstand any kind of impact with solid objects. Moreover, they are largely built of aluminum (with other assorted exotic metals) which, when shattered, can be ignited and burn exothermically (it produces more heat than required to get the process going). The aircraft were essentially turned into large thermite/napalm cruise missiles.

The reason for the damage to the buildings surrounding WTC 1 and 2 came from the collapse of the twin towers. Concrete and steel falling from that height carry an enormous amount of kinetic energy which must be disbursed upon impact with the ground. The shockwave of the impact blew dust and debris for many blocks around the city (with the dustcloud going for many miles). Adjacent buildings would have suffered blast and seismic damage from the collapse of the twin towers, rendering them unsafe for continued occupation. It's not unusual for demolition and reconstruction to be required in that case. Remember that the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma was destroyed by a blast some 50 yards away from it.

An aircraft diving from altitude at full speed (such as the Pentagon strike) would not generate the same amount of noise as an aircraft doing a level low-altitude fly-by. As shown by the radar data from the 4th aircraft which crashed in Pennsylvania, the diving airliner was probably close quite close to Mach when it hit the ground.

Aircraft disappearing from radar when close to the ground is not unusual. In fact, it is a tactic employed by military aircraft when on runs to strike enemy emplacements.

Don't give morons like "Total Dipshit" any more ground than you have to. While it can be persuasively argued that 9/11 was allowed to happen, trying to claim extra explosive and/or missile strikes just promotes a certain "tinfoil hat" image.



Comment #237: dawn said on 7/24/05 @ 6:14pm ET...

Genghis,

#1 something of a plane would have remained outside the building - check other crashes.

#2 you haven't explained how DNA was possible while the heat was hot enough to vaporize the metal.

#3 WTC1 and WTC2 were not close enough to WTC7 to cause the amount of damage you describe... aside from that how did the owner of WTC7 order the demolition that day? Was there a boat in the harbor with the necessary equipment and teams of people to bring down a 50 story building? Enough wire, enough RDX?
And, if WTC7 was in the damaged state you mention, it would've taken more structural work to enable the detonation that day. Read something on demolition and you'll understand a few things. The owner admitted imploding his building at 5:20 pm on 9/11. How, exactly, was that done in the chaos of the day? And, if this was possible, what was the hurry? It would've been illegal destruction of crime scene evidence to do so.

#4 the Murray building was not blown up from 50 yards away. You have some reading to do.

#5 the plane in Pennsylvania was shot down.

I could go on. You need to work on your 'research.'



Comment #238: gcm said on 7/25/05 @ 12:04am ET...

#236 GK, I agree with dawn,you need to do some serious research. A 757 with 42,400 pounds of JP7 would have done a hell of a lot more damage than what is apparant in the images I have seen. And yes, even with all that JP7 burning, you would still have the landing gear, the engines, and without a doubt a lot more pieces than were supposedly found.

Have you ever been next to a 757 other than boarding one? It's bigger than you think notwithstanding it is a single aisle airplane and not considered a "heavy" or "jumbo" airplane. Take a look: Boeing 757

Note the fuel capacity and the wingspan.

Did they find the so-called "black boxes"? If they have, why hasn't the cockpit recording been released? Have you ever seen one of these "black boxes"? If you have, you would know that they are unquestionably dayglow orange, not black.



Comment #239: Seth Cowen said on 7/25/05 @ 12:37am ET...

Not that anything isn't possible, but we should not be wasting time and thought thinking up different theorie of 911 and WTC. Of course we should always investigate new thoughts.

I have heard alot about the WTC, and possible, counterstories. I have also thought that that jet that blew up of the East coast several years ago may have been secretly shot down by our military,just like the 911 plane in Pennsylvania.

I try not to get lost in theories though especially ones that may never be proved, or at a minimum will not be proved until many cahnges take place.

As far as WTC I for one think it makes perfect sense that the Long Range Airliners at the beginning of their trip were full of fuel, and when they crashed into WTC, the disintegrated along with alot of the building.

With people arguing about stuff that they really do not know enough about it is no wonder that the Propaganda machine of King Rockefeller of Saudi Aramco, is able to make the common person think that anyone who mentions the truth about 911 is just some whack job. Alot of you people really do act like whack jobs.



Comment #240: Genghis Khan said on 7/25/05 @ 1:49am ET...

gcm: I know quite a bit about aircraft (even heavies, which a 757 is considered). If you want to really get an idea of how big a 757 is, try flying a single-engine GA aircraft in the vicinity of one when the rookie ATC is calling 10 miles when he really means 1...

The impact damage (especially to a hardened target such as the Pentagon) would be scarcely larger than the diameter of the fuselage as the wings would be shorn on impact and folded back, following the main body through intrusion.

All aircraft components (including landing gear) would be utterly destroyed in such an impact, and the resultant fire would consume anything left over as the debris would be quite contained in a rather (relatively) small area.

The black boxes are designed to survive "normal" mishaps where they are often clear of the majority of the damage and any resultant fire. A collision such as the Pentagon or WTC disasters far exceeds their operational parameters. And the cockpit recordings *were* released, but only to the families of the hijack victims.



Comment #241: gcm said on 7/25/05 @ 1:45pm ET...

#240 GK, my apologies if you take offense to my questions but again I offer that a 757 is not considered a "heavy". 767s, 747s, A330s, A340s, DC10s and MD11s are twin aisle airplanes and are considered heavies. 737s, 757s, A320s and derivatives (A319), are single aisle airplanes and are not considered heavies. The pavement loading of the latter models is no where near that of the heavies.

#239 Seth, the 9/11 event is germaine to this discussion as this is where our current situation began to take shape. It is the catastrophic event that PNAC said was required to get their New American Century plan going with little or no backlash from the American public.

I thank both of you for your continued contributions to the debate. Keep up the good work.



Comment #242: gcm said on 7/25/05 @ 3:53pm ET...

Re my #241. I left out the 777. Also a heavy.


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