Replies: 159 Comments

Comment #1: van said on 7/14/05 @ 11:13pm ET...

I love how JC with no proof claims that there was an attempt to discredit liar joe. Joe Wilson discredits himself every time he speaks. He lies about the VP sending him to Niger. He lies about his wife getting him the job. He lies about seeing and debunking documents that were not even in US custody at the time he went to Niger. The senate intel committee has shown this time and again. Why does JC not believe a bipartisan senate report showing Joe Wilson to be a liar?

Comment #2: Doug Eldritch said on 7/14/05 @ 11:14pm ET...

Congressman Conyers,

I believe the truth may have Jack Abramoff and his cronies on the run.

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/071305/abramoff.html

It appears Jack Abramoff's israel based contacts in AIPAC have flown the coop, very nervously, knowing the lid is about to come off.

May I suggest getting some officers in the United Kingdom, and also prosecutors to go arrest these men immediately? Especially in order to find out what they know.

It looks like the Justice Department "coverup" is quickly falling into a collapse.....

Doug E.

Comment #3: Doug Eldritch said on 7/14/05 @ 11:18pm ET...

Oh Van, does he really lie?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a8dab8rni_Do&refer=us

What a surprise. He apparently doesn't. You never can discredit the evidence, so you ridicule it instead.

Doug E.

Comment #4: van said on 7/14/05 @ 11:35pm ET...

funny how that article actual shows where joe lied several times dougey. maybe you should try to read things before posting.

"Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.
The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address"

and

"The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."

"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger."

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

note the secondary title of the article
"Report Disputes Wilson's Claims on Trip, Wife's Role "

Joe Wilson is a LIAR. Pretending otherwise is foolish and will only help to marginalize the left even more.

Comment #5: Doug Eldritch said on 7/14/05 @ 11:39pm ET...

Actually, it only proves that he knew what was going on over there.

Did you know he's a life long republican? Ohh yeah....nah you don't.

You don't know anything about Wilson and then you say you do.

Collin Powell came out showing the niger docs were false, and while Wilson misled the Senate on certain parts of the report he was never discredited.

Remember the senate still found the documents to be forged, what a surprise ay? You are proven wrong on Wilson again.

Doug E.

Comment #6: okcitykid said on 7/14/05 @ 11:47pm ET...

I have a blog - and I'm at a total loss as to what I'm supposed to put on it concerning this. I would only be repeating what someone else has said for the sixth time. It is interesting however how many different ways this can be explained. And I'm glad everyone is posting concerning this.

But I guess I can add this. Bush's Brain. You can rent it at Netflix. See it, and get a better understanding of Mr. Rove and how he operates. Some say Mr. Bush cannot survive without him, however, I dissagree. Mr. Bush is already president. His popularity is falling. Blame everything on Karl Rove and get rid of him and he might become popular again. Those who follow after Mammon and call it God would sell their own mother for power and money and declare they are making the sacrifice for their country. Karl Rove can be Mr. Bush's best friend today and tomorrow he might discard him like a used napkin. For these are those who have no honor, who can at a whim send brave men and women to die based on their lie.

Somebody did a very good job putting this flash presentation together, check it out.

GET
YOUR PACK OF LIES - IT COST SOMEBODY THEIR LIFE!

Comment #7: Rusty said on 7/14/05 @ 11:50pm ET...

In the fifth year of the Reign of the Anointed One, the storm clouds are gathering and the sky is growing dark over the Castle of Rove, for the Armies of Truth are on the march.

Atop the crumbling ramparts, fear is spreading through the Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts, and they are trembling as Rove the Creator screeches desperate talking points to them, for the Armies of Truth were drawing near, and their fury is a sight to behold.

Venturing forth from his closet, Mehlman the Hypocrite has rushed up to the ramparts and passed out the Kool Aid. And the Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts are drinking it down, as their fathers and grandfathers did in the days of Saint Ronald the Ignorant.

But the Kool Aid tastes bitter this time, for it has been provided by the Duke of Halliburton, and tastes more like the urine of a leprous dog than Kool Aid. The Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts are choking it down anyway, for drinking Kool Aid is their job.

As the Armies of Truth surround the Castle of Rove, the Anointed One asks Rove the Creator what to do. Rove the Creator wipes the sewage from his garments, gnashes his teeth for a moment, and then produces the Patriot Tablet. "This will smite the unbelievers," spake Rove, "for we can cast them into the outer darkness for jaywalking, and toss their children into dungeons unto the seventh generation.

And the Anointed One smirks, for the Patriot Tablet is a fearsome weapon. Wielding it, he can cleanse the land of Foul Unbelievers and lead the Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts into the Promised Land of Eternal Republican Rule.

And the Anointed One and Rove the Creator gloat, and call upon the Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts to defend the Castle of Rove against the heathens, and the wicked, and the liberals, and the evildoers who dwell in the darkness of Reality, that accursed realm where the faithless are deluded by facts and logic.

And the Anointed One raises his hands unto them in benediction, and blesses them in the name of Rove the Creator. And the ramparts resound with self-righteousness, as the Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts praise themselves and their Master, who has inherited the Kingdom of Saint Ronald and flew into the land of the Babylonians with a plastic turkey.

But as the Armies of Truth begin to bombard the Castle of Rove, the casualties on the ramparts will mount alarmingly. The Prince of Blackwell, who had counted the Holy Ballots in the Province of Ohio and had cast the Unholy Ballots into the Lake of Fire, will be among the first to fall, for an Arrow of Light will pierce his armor of rare coins, and will still his dark heart forever.

McClellan the Unwise won't last long either, and will succumb to Ron Ziegler disease before he can even fire a shot. DeLay the Pest Exterminator will last be seen being devoured by termites, intent upon avenging their ancestors. High Priest Santorum, waving his sword to rally both of his supporters, will inadvertently behead the Duke of Cornyn, who will keep firing away at the Armies of Truth for two hours before he notices his head is gone. Friar Frist will somehow manage to stab himself in the groin with his own spear, diagnose the wound as an outbreak of herpes, and flee to a Castle of Rove hospice for extended treatment.

Woe unto the Anointed One, and Rove the Creator, and the Cult of Perpetual Wingnuts, for the Armies of Truth are battering down your castle walls. The Legions of FOX cannot save you, for Hannity the Hapless has overdosed on Kool Aid and is babbling his way into the Irish Idiot's Hall of Fame. O'Reilly the Oracle, already a charter member, is taking a long shower with a hot Italian broad, and has hung a Do Not Disturb sign on his bathroom door. And Ailes the Ailing has an imminent appointment with the Grim Reaper, who isn’t fair and balanced either.

Stay tuned for further updates. In the meantime, that loud sucking sound you hear is Gannon/Guckert supporting the Rovian troops . . .

Comment #8: van said on 7/14/05 @ 11:59pm ET...

I dont recall saying that the docs in question were real. Just that joe said he debunked them and that was not true as he could not have possibly seen them. Joe's political regitration is as irrelevant as my own. Party affiliation does not have any affect on the ability to tell the truth.

Focusing on the docs is simply a distraction.

The fact is that Joe, according to the senate report and the wapo article i quoted from, has repeatedly misrepresented his mission, and the results of that mission. This by definition, makes him a liar.

This line is especially helpful in understanding joe so I will post it again.

"The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address"

Comment #9: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 12:02am ET...

Backpedaling now, Van?

Just because Ambassador Joe Wilson got it wrong on the dates, and some of the information he provided to the biased committee of "Pat Roberts" by the way.....Just because he got those things wrong, he's now a discredited liar.

You sound like Rush Limbaugh. The overall fact is he got more things right than wrong, and that is what scared the bejezus out of the administration. Had they gotten away with it, the "intelligence & facts" would have been fixed in 2002. Instead they had to manufacture other evidence.

Doug E.

Comment #10: GreyHawk121 said on 7/15/05 @ 12:07am ET...

On AmericaBlog now:
Bush admin may be responsible for botching effort to thwart London bombing

And on DailyKOS:
Did Bushco Tip off London Bombers?

...and several other spots. Looks like their political manipulations of the terror-alert level might have led to some serious repurcussions, a la the London bombing.

Anyone want to be Mr. Rove 'masterminded' that ploy, too?

Comment #11: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 12:08am ET...

Hey guess what Rovers and republicans for treason,

Novak ALSO had Karl Rove as his source!!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/politics/15rove.html?hp&ex=1121400000&en=15d2c0ff1133350b&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Just breaking:

"Karl Rove, the White House senior adviser, spoke with the columnist Robert D. Novak as he was preparing an article in July 2003 that identified a C.I.A. officer who was undercover, someone who has been officially briefed on the matter said Thursday.

Mr. Rove has told investigators that he learned from the columnist the name of the C.I.A. officer, who was referred to by her maiden name, Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq, the person said.

After hearing Mr. Novak's account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: "I heard that, too."

The previously undisclosed telephone conversation, which took place on July 8, 2003, was initiated by Mr. Novak, the person who has been briefed on the matter said."

Karl LIED when he said Novak told him who she was....He flat out lied, because he provided information to Novak!!!!

So wait....Then how can Rove claim he DIDN'T know who she was?

Oh how interesting it's getting.....Wouldn't vanny agree?

Where's John Bolton at now?

Doug E.

Comment #12: ljm said on 7/15/05 @ 12:15am ET...

Thanks for getting back to the big picture. Today on CNN, Doug Feith told Wolf Blitzer we went to war to overthrow the an evil regime and liberate the Iraqi people. When Blitzer brought up the reason for war being WMD, Feith said Saddam had WMD programs. Then he talked about the stockpiles of weapons they never found and how that's the mystery of the war, where they are hidden. That's his story and he's sticking to it. I think Blitzer was as astonished as I was when Feith said the reason to go to war was regime change, just as Scott Ritter said in the run up to the war, not WMD. Did they ever tell you the reason to authorize the president to use the military was for regime change, Mr. Conyers? I recall denials about that and only the claim of actual threat to us from WMD or to our allies in the region from Saddam.

Comment #13: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 12:21am ET...

The hilarious part ljm is it will now be he said vs she said.

Robert Novak vs Karl Rove on who gave the name first. Robert will be so pissed he will never say it was him and then blame it on either Rove or the other W.H. official like Bolton....

Karl was obviously Novak's first source, and we only have to get the evidence to find out who was Karl's.....

Doug E.

Comment #14: Bumpa said on 7/15/05 @ 1:02am ET...

Had trouble w/ earlier posts hope this goes.

Valerie Plame-Wilson was outed, the CIA compromised, her 'front' cover exposed, and many of her sources endangered. Because Rove did no wrong......? Does this mean that a drive-by shooter is innocent because he didn't know his victims name? or what he did for a living? Rove made it very clear to Cooper who he was talking about and what she did, even if he didn't use a name and because of that our nations security was jeopardized. No name = no crime? If you buy that I have 12 acres on the moon I'll sell you.

Comment #15: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 1:07am ET...

WAR ON WILSON:

"In an exclusive interview Lewis Libby, the Vice President's Chief of Staff, told TIME: "The Vice President heard about the possibility of Iraq trying to acquire uranium from Niger in February 2002. As part of his regular intelligence briefing, the Vice President asked a question about the implication of the report. During the course of a year, the Vice President asked many such questions and the agency responded within a day or two saying that they had reporting suggesting the possibility of such a transaction. But the agency noted that the reporting lacked detail. The agency pointed out that Iraq already had 500 tons of uranium, portions of which came from Niger, according to the International Atomic Energy Administration (IAEA). The Vice President was unaware of the trip by Ambassador Wilson and didn't know about it until this year when it became public in the last month or so. ""
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,465270,00.html

CURRENT EVENTS:

"The very next day, July 7, 2003, the White House admitted it had erred in including the references about uranium in Bush's State of the Union speech.

Two days later, two top White House officials disclosed Plame's identity to at least six Washington journalists, an administration official told The Post in an article published Sept. 28, 2003.

Those two officials were Karl Rove and Lewis Libby. "

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0507/S00227.htm

So Lewis Libby & Dick Cheney were the second source, besides Rove.....Let me guess Libby got it from Bolton...!

Doug E.

Comment #16: Reed31463 said on 7/15/05 @ 1:15am ET...

van,

Rove and Novak teamed up before to leak information, when he was working with Bush SR. When GHWB found out, he fired Rove from the campaign committee. Precedent is set.

Should GWB listen to his Daddy? Look like his little boy is very oppositional.

Who cares what Wilson said? He could have said GWB wears pink pajamas. It does't even really matter that Valerie Plame and Joseph Wilson were married. That is circumstantial evidence that shows motive and just how dirty this administration is.

The important fact relevent is that Rove disclosed classified information about a CIA agent to a reporter. The agent,at the time, was in Iraq working on WMD, thus endangering her life and ending her mission. Negligent disclosure of classified information is a SAEDA incident and requires immediate containment.

Rove is unpatriotic, hateful, spiteful, and untrustwothy. His behavior decredits and demoralizes the soldiers fighting in Iraq. His negligence has endangered the life of an American, and Americans don't do that to each other. Especially when we are fighting the global war terror.

So what's all this BS about Joseph Wilson did this or lied there. I do not care if he jumping jacks in the uranium mines in Niger.

That will never change the fact of what Rove did. So in the words of your highly esteemed Bill O'Reilly, "Just Shut Up"!

You're not on the Grand Jury. It's not in your hands. Say something meaningful, like why all of a sudden the WH has clammed up but the RNC just keeps babbling to their talking points.

Usually if one is innocent, they can't wait to tell their side of the story. Only the guilty clam up.

Comment #17: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 1:21am ET...

Niger-Cheney connection...

~snip

Halliburton admits it might have bribed Nigerian government
2 Sept. 2004

WASHINGTON, Sept. 2 (HalliburtonWatch.org) --

Halliburton's lawyer told the Wall Street Journal today that the company's KBR subsidiary "may" have bribed Nigeria's government to win an $8.1 billion contract to build a natural gas liquefaction plant. James Doty, an attorney for the Houston law firm Baker Botts, told the Journal that "people may at the time have been planning or contemplating the necessity of money for the purpose of making bribes." Doty based his comment on newly uncovered written notes from KBR employees which suggest that bribes were discussed to win the Nigeria contract. "There is no way to read these materials and not be concerned about that," Doty told the Journal. The notes were discovered over the last 10 days by Halliburton's lawyers and were written between 1993 and 1998.

Nigeria's natural gas contract is performed today by a consortium of four companies known collectively as "TSKJ," with KBR as the lead company. All four companies are accused of paying the bribes, valued at $180 million, between 1995 and 2002. Vice President Dick Cheney was CEO for Halliburton from 1995 to 2000. His involvement in the case, if any, is still unclear.

The U.S. Justice Department is conducting a criminal investigation to determine whether KBR violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which prohibits American companies from bribing foreign governments. France and Nigeria are conducting investigations as well.

read the rest of this article at:
http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/bribe.html

Comment #18: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 1:35am ET...

#17 Sandra Are you a member of SoapBox? If not, please join. Then I'll give you editing ability on the Conyers Timeline Project

JC, I hope our efforts have contriubted to your work. Reading the timeline, I see what you see... a long time effort to change the course of history through propoganda.

Comment #19: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 1:35am ET...

Sandra,

Is Niger actually the same country as Nigeria? Just clarifying, this is important.

Doug E.

Comment #20: Reed31463 said on 7/15/05 @ 1:38am ET...

Cool! Another investigation into corruption. Let's see how many more glass balls the WH can keep in the air before the juggler starts to get tired. The lies are going to get more and more convoluted and nonsensical as they try to keep all the different storylines staight.

#12 ljm pointed out how Feith screwed his story up. Apparently, he forgot that 9-11 is the theme of the month. Or was it WMD that Congress authorized????

Comment #21: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 1:40am ET...

Doug,,, Yes sir!

Comment #22: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 1:40am ET...

#15 Doug re current events in your post. That should be in the timeline. All this information is relevant and important to Mr. Conyers' research and to be able to point others to the timeline and to the truth.

PLEASE EVERYONE! It's good, very good, to post here. It's vital to our country's future and to the world to post to the timeline.

Conyers Timeline Project is being used by the Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee, who will be Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee after the mid-term elections. Please give him the information, every scrap of information, that he needs to continue to fight for all of us.

Comment #23: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 1:42am ET...

Patriot, As I'm sure you're aware I've communicated with Erik in Phily on several occasions and sent him emails when SoapBox would not accept my email addr. 'Error' unique....?

Comment #24: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 1:57am ET...

Geography Clarification:

Niger
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Niger is a landlocked sub-Saharan country in Western Africa situated north of Nigeria and Benin, east of Mali, and south of Algeria and Libya, named after the Niger river. The capital city is Niamey.

Comment #25: dawn said on 7/15/05 @ 2:17am ET...

If this Halliburton bribe is true, it shows the reason the White House had to not just 'out' Valerie Plame, but more importantly, to 'out' the CIA cover company Brewster-Jennings. Isn't it interesting that Novak also wrote a second article in October 2003 and emphasized this cover company and said he didn't think this was a real company.

Well, it was. And it had to roll up its business when this article came out. This cover company spent years, maybe decades, building a cover in the oil industry to infiltrate and follow weapons of mass destruction through all of its contacts in Iraq, N. Korea, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Malasia, Dubai, Moscow, Capetown, etc., etc.

There is no doubt that this CIA group was getting real close to finding the money laundering or improprieties going on with Halliburton and probably the Carlyle group and others in Saudi Arabia. Bush and Cheney probably had a real interest in not allowing the investigation to continue. If so, they would need to shut down the CIA fast. And how to do that?

Out the front-company and end the investigations.

If this front company is how the United States researches the proliferation of WMDs around the world -- for our own national security -- then that explains CIA's description of this situation as "devastating."

To do this at any time, not just during a time of war, is beyond recklessness and profiteering. It is treason and it deserves to be handled as such. This is an outrage to every citizen, regardless of political affiliation. How does the CIA rebuild this information structure? How long does it take? What happens in the meantime? My God.

To have to sift through the rhetoric of the attacks on Joe Wilson's character is disgusting when considering the enormity of the situation. I find Joe Wilson to be credible. I do not find President Bush, Cheney and group credible. What is becoming obvious are the lies to get us into a war. What is obvious are the enormous multi-billion dollar contracts floating around behind the scenes. What is obvious is the constant drain on our treasury. What is becoming obvious is that we are getting 'played' by people who are in it for the money and are willing to do anything to cover up what they are doing. Shameful. Simply shameful.

Comment #26: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 2:35am ET...

We need to get an arrest warrant and counsel out on Michael Ledeen....

You do realize that the information on Niger, the forged documents out there are what prove they fixed the intelligence & facts around policy...

They are what prove impeachment, and even more incredibly, indictment as well. We need them, and then to start forcably removing those who broke the law.

Remember, Karl Rove and Cheney's chief of staff knew Plame's name and the identities of all the CIA officers directly....Phone records prove this.

"The Times reporters observe: “The revelation of Mr. Rove's conversation with Mr. Novak raises a question the White House has never addressed: whether Mr. Rove ever described that conversation, or his conversation with Mr. Cooper, with the president.”"

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000979690

"Two days later, two top White House officials disclosed Plame's identity to at least six Washington journalists, an administration official told The Post in an article published Sept. 28, 2003.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071500036.html

Surprise....
Doug E.

Comment #27: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 2:39am ET...

More interesting facts about Niger.

#21 correction -- Niger and Nigeria are separate countries that border; The 15% of Niger's land that is arable is found mainly along its southern border with Nigeria

'One of the poorest countries and highest mortality rate' currently in the UTILITY PRIVATIZATION phase

Substantial deposits of gold, (new Gold Mine discovered Oct.2004) uranium, (although uranium still provides 72% of national export proceeds) phosphates, coal, iron, limestone, and gypsum also have been found in Niger. Niger has oil potential. In 1992, the Djado permit was awarded to Hunt Oil, and in 2003 the Tenere permit was awarded to the China National Petroleum Company. An (Texas) ExxonMobil-Petronas joint venture now holds the sole rights to the Agadem block, north of Lake Chad, and oil exploration is ongoing.

http://www.newsfollowup.com/halliburton.htm

Comment #28: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 2:49am ET...

As an American who declines to state a political party I try to pay attention to what is being said by Democrat party members and Republican party members. You are all pretty much in aggreement about most things,. Unfortunately you never want to listen to eachother bacause you just want to talk at eachother. Some of the posts on here by the Bush supporters actualy make sense, but the Democrat party supporters miss the opportunity to answer your valid questions, not that you would actually consider the validity of their answer.

To start I would like to address:

"I love how JC with no proof claims that there was an attempt to discredit liar joe"

Please correct me if I am wrong? but I think I remember the conservative white house buddy media telling me that Karl Rove's own attorney, confirms what was typed in an email turned over by a media source, between one of its writers and Karl Rove, or perhaps it was a phone call, or both? But anyways, it has been confirmed and admited to that Karl Rove told a reporter something like "don't put too much confidence in Joe Wilson's information, his wife is a CIA agent" I aggree that Karl Roves attorney says that there is nothing wrong with that statement.

I even aggree that Karl Roves unethical behavior is just poltics in AMerica as usual. I aggree that Karl Rove despite the appearance of haveing comitted a serious breach of National Security will probably get off scott free.

And even if he is found guitly, he is a good ole boy who would get a pardon.

I also agree that Karl Rove did not disclose her name, he just gave the reporter a map to find out what her name was.

I have tried to communicate with several of you Democrat party memebrs and Republican party members, but everytime it comes to admitting that your own party and some of your own representatives are part of the problems to which you seek solutions, then you act crazy, you start posting jibberish. That is exactly what the wanna be rulers of the World want us Americans to do, avoid all the real issues, that point to a real threat of Fascism taking over America.

I pray that Republican party members will accept that Bush is not a Republican. I pray that Democrat Party members will accept that John Forbes Kerry, and John D. Rockefeller IV are not Democrats. They are part of an elite ruling class that thinks we are all stupid.

I really pray that all Americans will see the truth that party politics has caused you to not see. See the truth, don't let history remember you as a Notsee.

Seth

Comment #29: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 2:55am ET...

Does anybody have current info on any of these investigations? I remember something coming out just before the election in Oct. 2004 but have seen nothing in the headlines since...

Having listed a barrage of charges and facts that included; tax evasion, fraud, lying, bribes, no-bid contracts, price gouging the government, etc... Ahhh! I figured I had gotten it out of my system, but that didn't last very long. I could not have imagined in my wildest dreams that in just 3 months time, that Cheney, his staff, and Halliburton, would be currently under separate investigations from The U.S. Justice Department, The U.S. Department of the Treasury, the Pentagon, Securities and Exchange Commission, the French Government, and the Nigerian Government. All this escaping the headlines of the print media, and the top stories of the television media.

http://www.independent-media.tv

Comment #30: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 2:56am ET...

Seth,

You are wrong about Rove not knowing the name or leaking the name.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071500036.html

As you can see here he clearly knew and confirmed to Novak what the name was. He and the WH had full knowledge of the name, the entire time.

I do not agree with Kerry much of the time but he is not part of the DLC.

If you want to know who is DLC and who isn't read this, it lines up the facts.

http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V12/7/dreyfuss-r.html

John Kerry is not mentioned once, Rockefeller is and there is many others who are simply corporocrats that don't give a crap about anyone but themselves.

Now, Howard Dean, John Conyers, and the rest doing the real work are not anything like the DLC nor do they officially endorse the DLC. So why not stop bringing your blame to them and those not responsible.

Doug E.

Comment #31: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 2:59am ET...

Seth --- some of the posts that you're referring to were carried over from the previous thread.

Also, this has been confirmed...

News Update from Citizens for Legitimate Government
15 July 2005
http://www.legitgov.org/
http://www.legitgov.org/index.html#breaking_news

Rove Reportedly Held Phone Talk on C.I.A. Officer 15 Jul 2005 Karl Rove, the White House senior adviser, spoke with the columnist Robert D. Novak as he was preparing an article in July 2003 that identified a C.I.A. officer who was undercover, someone who has been officially briefed on the matter said Thursday.

All I ask is that you stop coming on here and repeating the same old party division politics and rants from previous arguments.

Let's try to get rid of the name calling and labeling --- are we not all AMERICANS?

Comment #32: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:02am ET...

P.S. Your continued posts regarding John Kerry and John Rockefeller are not part of the equasion.

Comment #33: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:07am ET...

I had resolved to ignore DE but, sometimes he makes a good point, and then ruins it.. DE argues with himself even. I do that sometimes alone for practice with an issue, but not out of denial induced psycosis like DE and aparently many others.

I was refering to a specific news line which said Rove told a reporter not to trust Wislon because his wife works at the agency. The truth is that that does not equal saying her name, just giving a map to find her name.

Thanks DE for the "Corporocrats" word,, and what is the DLC?

The DLC sounds interesting.

So if DE admits that some Democrat party member elected representatives are also to blame for the Bush problem why aren't people quitting your parties and demanding the real truth, not just the same old propaganda turned around and suited to fit your party line?

Seth

Comment #34: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:10am ET...

Seth,

Rove has also denied even knowing Valerie Wilson --- but, I thought I read that they all attend the same church.

These people are corrupt to the core Seth.

What do we do next?

Comment #35: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:12am ET...

I understand that accepting the truth can be difficult. I expect your harsh and untrue responses.

I believe that my posts are relevant to the toopic at the top of the page as well as relevant to other posts. It is not my fault if people cant follow my post and see how it relates to the topic and other posts. Your reaction of hostility is typical, and I undertand it, I am not mad at you.

Seth

Comment #36: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:15am ET...

IN answer to the question
Seth,

Rove has also denied even knowing Valerie Wilson --- but, I thought I read that they all attend the same church.

These people are corrupt to the core Seth.

What do we do next?

I aggree that they are corrupt to the core and even corrupting.

But I have been trying to tell you al what to do next for a while now.

What to do next can not happen until you accept that the terrorists disguised as Republicans are not doing this all by themselves.

Seth

Comment #37: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 3:17am ET...

Seth,

The problem is perjury and then willingly leaking classified information....

He did not have to say her name, in order to leak the information.

He said she was Joe Wilson's wife of which he only has one-But the kicker is he also said she works in a secretive CIA unit investigating WMD.....

Those weren't just bread trails. That allowed Cooper to know exactly where it was, thus a violation of the 1982 act.

Brewster Jennings was a NOC operation, up until Rove and possibly Libby leaked this information on purpose.

Do you realize the extent of damage then that it caused? This also covers up for the "fixing intelligence around the policy" that downing street is being investigated....

And there is no reason to quit the party. The DLC is a minority and is getting pressured more every day, they will become as irrelevant as PNAC.

Because of their own extreme policies it will backfire, bank on it.

Doug E.

Comment #38: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:17am ET...

And, on this 'party line' stuff... this is what Melman is preaching on every channel.

Their response to an inquiry of justice is to attack every democrat they can name. The 'talking points' moves in to crisis management mode and I thought I heard him saying, it's all partisan politics and naming Hillary, Kerry, MoveOn, etc. just like the 'liberal' rant from Rove at his speech recently in NY.

It's always somebody elses fault... they cannot admit mistake or crimes that they have committed.

It reminds me of my son who broke a vase recently, rather than take responsibility for it he tried to blame it on the dog.

That's the M.O. of this administration "my dog ate my homework".

Will any of them have the integrity to step forward and take some responsibility and be held accountable to the PEOPLE they represent?

Our continued energy must be concentrated on holding all our officials and representatives to a higher standard.

After all, they represent us!

Comment #39: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:23am ET...

"Our continued energy must be concentrated on holding all our officials and representatives to a higher standard".

Yeah, except for the do no wrong Democrat party members right?

Don't you know that the elite ruling class with their think tanks figured you out a long time ago.

The elite ruling class know that the American people can only stand so much, so they have to have an alternate scape goat. It is really quite simple to see the truth once you pull your head out of the sand in the desert of party politics along the river of denial.

Seth

Comment #40: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:25am ET...

Even DE admits that Rockefeller is not on the same level that he thinks John Kerry is on,atleast DE is willing to accept that some Democrat party members are part of the problem.
It's a start in the right direction.

Seth

Comment #41: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:28am ET...

There is corruption in both parties --- I would argue it is more detrimental in the current coup sitting in the White House under the cloak and guise of 'Republican'.

So what is your answer in this two party system Seth?

Overthrow the government in a coup, revolution, civil war ?

Comment #42: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 3:29am ET...

I have never thought Rockefeller and quite a few of them were up to any good. They appear on the DLC democrats official list.

If they were true democrats they wouldn't be on the lobby of every other corporation.....Big business supercedes the people every time, with these kind of operatives.

Doug E.

Comment #43: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:32am ET...

Did you vote for John Kerry or John Rockefeller?

They serve their constituants who voted for them. It is up to those citizens to vote them out.

Who is your Senator?

Comment #44: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 3:37am ET...

I used to have Ken Salazar also and he seemed to be doing a good job, but then got into the pockets of some off-hand corporation.

I think Salazar may just not be the tough person to protect Colorado, and have a feeling he won over a more qualified democrat fraudulently.

Kerry does not do enough to fight corruption sometimes, but I've never seen him work for the DLC. He is like Pete Fitzergald.

He works as a liberal and as a moderate at times, but never goes after anything but the bottom line of justice.

He knows what is right and wrong, and when someone has really broken the law. That's why the corporate media hates Kerry so bad, he stands for what he knows is the truth.

Doug E.

Comment #45: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:37am ET...

I suggest both of you take a step back from the 'let's bash the democrats' and realize that they are the only ones right now fighting for the Constitution. And, at every pass the Republicans are obstructing justice.

'You go to war with the representatives you have'

You both should be supporting the efforts being waged for truth and justice by the Democratic Party every day.

They are outnumbered and have no control over the House, Senate, Executive, or Judicial...

I'm for the underdogs in this fight and will continue to support their efforts to make this world a better place.

Comment #46: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:41am ET...

Not that it is anyones business, but I did vote for Kerry in 04 after I was unable to get nader on Californais's ballot, and I realized that Nader is a good guy, but his organization sucks.

I didn''t really like John Forbes Kerry the Skull and Bones cousin of W , but I wanted to show solidarity with the couple of Kerry supporters who were actually open minded enough to tell me that they were "dyed in the wool with Kerry", but they would sign my Nader nomination paper also. I didn't try to change their minds at the time because they were at least willing to sign the nomination of an independant candidate, instead thinking that the AMerican thing to do is to limit choices for Presidential candidates.

I voted for the good people that were opposed to Bush and thought that Kerry was the only alternative. I am kinda ashamed that I voted for Kerry, but I thought that my neighbors supporting Kerry were at least falling for the good propaganda even if it was not true. I voted Kerry to vote against Bush even though I know Kerry is Bush.

Seth

Comment #47: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 3:42am ET...

The problem here is almost every single republican is corrupt and blind, except people like....

Ron Paul, who Tom DeLay would have fired. There is likewise only a select group of democrats who are corrupt and they are at the very top of the Senate.

They are the DLC council who has enabled these republicans to rape the constitution. Great bunch of people here, wow....

Doug E.

Comment #48: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:44am ET...

My senator is either feinstein or Boxer, I get confused, both of them are hippocrits though, so I did not vote for either of them.

Seth

Comment #49: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:49am ET...

Now, there you go again. I find nothing in common with Bush and Kerry 'the person'.

Yes, they both went to Yale, and yes they both were nominated in to Scull and Bones Secret Society.

The similarities end there.

Honestly, Kerry would have been a much better choice for our country and would have done things totally different. He might have actually been the 'elected president' but for the corruption and tampering with votes as many investigations are now proving.

He is an honorable and sincere man, a loyal veteran, and an excellent legislator, but a lousy campaigner.

Comment #50: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 3:52am ET...

And in California I didn't even know who either of those people were.

However when Barbara Boxer finally stood up for civil rights and started speaking the truth at every conference, I knew who was and should be the real senator of California.

Boxer stood up with thousands in declaring the results of 2004 rife with fraud and, us needing to establish real laws to protect civil rights especially of african americans.

Feinstein didn't do a thing....And Feinstein showed her true colors like Randy Cunningham, when she revealed that Boeing & a defense contractor had paid her.

Feinstein confirmed Condaleeza Rice for us, bankruptcy, and so many other tragedies I wish she was no longer in CA.

Feinstein should go independant and stop destroying CA with corporate tax evasions.

Boxer over Feinstein anyday, and Cunningham, and any other Republican in California. There's also the governor. All corrupt.

Doug E.

Comment #51: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:52am ET...

Now, I actually have a lot of respect for both Feinstein and Boxer. They know how to ask the tough questions and their not affraid to do so.

Comment #52: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 3:52am ET...

Sandra why do you keep defending criminals and reverting to party politics.

Aren't we trying to hold all those accountable for the illegal transfer of power from congress to the executive branch, the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq,and the illegal signing of the USA PATRIOT act wthout even reading it?. They could have signed America over to Bin Laden and they would not have even known it.

Seth

Comment #53: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:54am ET...

Seth, I don't see that I'm 'defending criminals' I see that the only ones fighting for truth, justice, and change are the Democrats.

Do you honestly believe we will have more accountability by electing more republicans in to this mess?

Comment #54: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 3:57am ET...

You do understand the stark difference in the platforms of both don't you?

Republican - CORPORATE WEALTH

Democrats - PEOPLE

Do you ever ask why the one lone Independent always votes with the Democrats (eventhough he used to be a Republica) ?

Comment #55: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 3:57am ET...

There will NEVER be accountability unless we get republicans like Ron Paul and democrats like Howard Dean.

Now I know what the mistake was. And John Kerry was not a mistake, he fights in whatever way he can every day. He now calls press conferences, did you see that? If the truth needs to be told, he will be visible.

Total 180 from Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.....Or.....who's the most corrupt man in Washington, Tom DeLay.

Doug E.

Comment #56: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:00am ET...

Do you honestly believe we will have more accountability by electing more republicans in to this mess?

I don't believe I have ever even given the slightest reason to be asked the above question?

I am inspired and happy to see that reading De's post was not a complete waste of time.

At least DE you show that you are not completely blinded by party politics.

I aggree that sometimes Boxer makes me think that things are headed in the right direction, yet she never seems to get us there, maybe she is good and is just hindered by others in her own party.

To say that Democrats(party) are the only one fighting for justice is just plain wrong.

Seth
Seth

Comment #57: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:05am ET...

Well, I hope more Republicans stand up and do the right thing. There are a few that are now but, every time they do there's backlash from their party line.

Okay, here's my choice in Florida

Mel Martinez junior senator republican elected via Rove tactics and big money... the guy didn't even want to run until Rove showed up down here and dropped a load of money and misappropriated FEMA funds from the Hurricanes last year while still delaying payment to the Florida National Guard for helping us and not assisting the residents with insurance costs doubled.

and

Bill Nelson senior senator moderate democrat who keeps voting with the Republicans on many issues as a trade-off and has too many special interests lobbyists to count.

But, if Katherine Harris even thinks shell run against Nelson I will be stuck voting for Nelson again eventhough he does not represent me.

Comment #58: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:06am ET...

Republican - CORPORATE WEALTH

Democrats - PEOPLE

typical divisive tactic.

I understand though, I used to think the same thing. I grew up the son of a Democrat mother and a Republican father. Many party affilitaions run deep, and go back along time in a families heritage, and I understand it is hard to accept that you and generations of your family have been fooled. I was able to accept it though, so why can't the rest of you? I think you can, but it might just take time, problem is I don't think we have all that much time, before Fassism becomes reality in America.

Seth

Comment #59: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:09am ET...

I was married to a republican for over 18 years... no thanks!

I remain an Independent and I don't vote Party... I vote for the PERSON.

I am curious though, every night you come on here and insult. Is there a deeper issue?

Comment #60: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 4:11am ET...

No, the truth is REAL democrats do represent the people.

But for a while now, corporate powers have taken over democrats using the DLC which is full of eisenhower republicans and other old-time corporate copouts.

The DLC no longer controls the democrats though, we have broken free of their stupid spoonfeeding!

We draw the message and, now the people can hold the corrupt republicans responsible.

Every day we get Pelosi, Dean and others to tell the truth about this massive corruption.

And we're going to sweep it out you better believe it, along with all the Nelsons and Martinez and other freeloaders....

So many elected by fraud, so much time to clean house. They will go the way of the dodo bird.

And don't tell me John McCain isn't corrupt....Did anyone see what he did last year? That guy is the ultimate good cop bad cop, no more corrupt shillers. We will take the party country back.

Doug E.

Comment #61: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:13am ET...

Oh I know, I used to respect McCain but, he keeps trying to play both sides of the coin.

Comment #62: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:13am ET...

Isnt' everyone insulting someone in one way or the other on this blog. I am pretty sure that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, PNAC, and all the other villains discussed in here would consider many posts to be insults, or they might be sick enough to consider them compliments.

I simply point out the truth. If someone is insulted by the truth, that is not my fault.

Seth

Comment #63: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:15am ET...

Lieberman too needs to go... he makes me ill but not nearly as bad as Frist.

Comment #64: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:17am ET...

The thing I like about Nader and Perot was they had the fix on the corporate lobbyists.

Now, that's the real problem!

Comment #65: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 4:18am ET...

Make no mistake, no matter how many LIEbermans and McCains are out there.....

The PNACers and the crazed neo-cons are enemies to us all, they are the ultimate coup that must be doused and removed first.

Their agenda includes one of great insanity and danger which is so radical, it could sacrafice us all as special "pups"

http://newamericancentury.org/

That is why the democrats are allowed to still have corruption in their own ranks, for the timebeing. There is bigger fish to fry.....And that includes the PNAC alliance with DLC.

Doug E

Comment #66: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:19am ET...

Isn't America a Republic. I think of America as a Democratic Republic, and I am a Conservatively Liberal Democratic Republican.

I won't pledge my allegiance to a platform, other thatn the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution of the United Tates of America.

All the discussion is pointless untill people from both parties are able to communicate and realize that they have both been fooled by a super power that controlls both of their parties.

Seth

Comment #67: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:22am ET...

Again, Seth... what do you propose?

Can you offer any solutions to the immediate problems?

I've seen your posts before that basically all say the same thing
"Conservatively Liberal Democratic Republican".

What is that exactly and how does it solve anything?

Comment #68: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:24am ET...

You both DE and Sandra makes good points. So what do you think about those bad Dems actualy being in wiht the PNAC and Bush CO.?

What about starting to hold the bad Dems accountable as an example for the good Republicans to follow. If the Republicans see Democrats admitting that they have been fooled and that people in their own party are part of the criminal conspiracy to destroy America, then the good Americans who call themselves Republicans might be able to accept that they too have been fooled.

Seth

Comment #69: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 4:25am ET...

The other problem:

Only the democrats are fighting this aggressively because too many republicans have been brainwashed by faux news, and they now believe all liberals are evil....

The mechanized drone syndrome. Create a massive army of dissensitized robots. Ever see I-ROBOT?

So there is no way to reach those republicans to make them understand how in danger they are, save forcably unplugging someone from a matrix.

It is that serious, and why most have chosen to dissassociate from the republicans and allow the horrors to wake up those with common sense gradually....As the nightmare becomes real.

Doug E.

Comment #70: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:28am ET...

Can you offer any solutions to the immediate problems? Yes.

I've seen your posts before that basically all say the same thing
"Conservatively Liberal Democratic Republican".

What is that exactly and how does it solve anything? That is exactly what it is. I like to give but conservatively, I believe in Democracy yet I live in a Republic.

I decline to state a party so that people will accept what I have to say as the truth, and not party politic mumbo jumbo.

Seth

Comment #71: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 4:32am ET...

Mr. Conyers,

Speaking of downing street minutes:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/7416234/?pageid=rs.NewsArchive&pageregion=mainRegion&rnd=1119467979340&has-player=false

This is a total account of all the official documents detailing the minutes, and when the Niger affair obviously fits into place.

I believe this will be of crucial help to ascertain the nature of these minutes when traveling to the U.K. It should go to prove how far back they were intent on manufacturing evidence.

Doug E.

Comment #72: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:33am ET...

Look, I think the Democrats have been beaten down for too long and they're just regaining their footing and voice again. The people are making a difference by their messages to representatives; I send out at least five per day. The Democrats have begun to realize that the people want them to fight and they're finally responding...this has all just been a recent turning point.

Also, don't doubt for one minute that 'they know their own' --- they know who's on the take and who is unethical and the people are demanding that those individuals be held accountable regardless of party affiliation.

Comment #73: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:37am ET...

"Conservatively Liberal Democratic Republican".

Well, I am an Independent but consider myself a Progressive Democrat.

Progressives are for change and action oriented; I'm also active on many issues -- environment, healthcare, education, etc.

But I don't come on this blog and demand to be recognized as a Democrat or Liberal or Progressive or Conservative.

In fact, I have yet to see a post that demands recognition of their party affiliation?

Except of course yours. I don't see it necessarily as truth to be taken seriously... I see it more as confusion of not knowing which direction to turn to?

Comment #74: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:39am ET...

I-Robot is about machines, nota good comparison.

Better watch a movie about Hitlers rise to power. The Muslims are sooo our Jews. Talk about brainsoiled, and I mean many otherwise good people actually are starting to believe that all Muslims are terrorists..

Seth

Comment #75: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 4:40am ET...

Everyone,

Just remember you don't want to be on the wrong side of a prosecutor like say....

Pete Fitzergald or John Kerry. Regardless of who you poll for, if you've broken the law, that guy is going to get you and put you in your place.

They stand for one rule: Justice. So the likes of Senator Joe Lieberman better watch out and duck, or folks like Bill Nelson....It already happened to Cunningham, it will happen to anyone who's broken the law.

You out there listening, Jeb-athon Bush?

Doug E.

Comment #76: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:43am ET...

I just realized that you hesitate to believe me about Party Politics because I lack proof. Would you believe it from an old book with an intro from Ralph Nader. The book is "America Inc. Who owns and operates the United States of America?"

Seth

Comment #77: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:46am ET...

Seth, I already have all that information believe me when I tell you I did not just get off the banana boat.

The point I'm trying to make is you come on here and continually bash everyone with your 'party politics' rants.

How it that helping anything?

Comment #78: Rusty said on 7/15/05 @ 4:51am ET...

Seth, spare me your worship of Ralph Nader. His egomania made the 2000 election close enough for Bush/Cheney to steal it and establish this fascist reich we are enduring. Furthermore, your lecturing about party politics is getting very tedious, as is your assumption that you are the Ultimate Arbiter of Truth.

Comment #79: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 4:56am ET...

Courtesy post:

Thanks very much for your response, Sandra, and also for the Wilson-Plame timeline PDF. We trust you've also seen Sidney Blumenthal's very detailed piece originally posted on Salon on Thurday:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071405K.shtml

In the press of immediate commitments, we did a quick search for Waxman's Iraq on the Record db. Should've dug a bit deeper! Very glad it's still available. Thanks!

Earlier we'd seen Cooperative Research's work on 9/11, and now thanks to you, we see their very detailed timeline on the decision to invade Iraq. Haven't checked the The National Security Archives lately, but they do excellent work.

Your perspectives on Congressman Conyers' intentions for this timeline make a lot of sense. This process focuses those reading his blog on an essential task and may also provide some useful bits of data in the process.

It's hard to believe his staff wouldn't have the informational and other resources to put this together quickly. And at the same time, there's real power in widely distributed intelligence to surface lots information and organize it in ways that his staff may miss in the short term. Building on what's already been done, sourced, and (we hope) vetted.

All the best,

P+T

Comment #80: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 4:56am ET...

Sandra, why do you insist on argueing , Iknda though we are on the same page?

I am not the enemy.

I believe that all of my post have been relevant and welocmed.

Have you looked broadly t alot of the posts?

I have, and I see people talking at eachother instead of with eachother because of party politics.

You respond to people whom qualify as trolls, I happen to think that they make some valid points, but have experienced that they are not willing to accept that there is anything wrong with Bush, or the Republican party. They don't want to listen to reason because logically they can not deny the truth. Unfortunately Democrats are the exact same way.

Everytime I see an opportnity for a Democrat to do something they seem to blow it, like 04, maybe that's because they are supposed to blow it, but put up just enough fight to appease the masses, kinda like Marie Antoinette, saying "let them eat cake"

Seth

Comment #81: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:06am ET...

Rusty,,why the hostility?

I know why, I understand, the truth is hard to accept.

You can't honestly blame Ralph Nader for Al Gore not becoming President. That is the kind of insanity that has been used by the Democrat Party to brainsoil so many Democrats.

I quit Naders campaign in 04 by the way because I was dissapointed in him and his organization. I voted for Kerry in 04. I did not vote for Nader in 2000 because he was on the Green Party Ticket. Nader like me declines to state a party. I only thought to support him in 04 because he was running no party, but I found that his organization was being run mostly by Greens, but had alot of Democrats and Republicans. I thought Nader 04 had become hipocracy so I quit and voted for Kerry because I thought that my Democrat friends seemed to be more sane than my Republican friends, even though my Democrat friends were pretty much just as close minded as my Republican friends.

I suggested the Book America Inc. because it is about twenty years old, and basically describes the future of an America divided at the hands of Party Politcs.

Seth

Comment #82: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 5:10am ET...

Seth,

The problem is you forget most democrats are good guys. There is not much of a problem with them and they are not required to take corporate interests.

Remember, even Al Gore wasn't flawless but he still was a good guy for making the internet.

Republicans on the other hand enjoy being bad, many of them have been outstoundingly evil through history. Just look at Nixon, Lee Atwater, and other republicans like Hoover who were inspired by Hitler and other regimes.

Republicans have gotten so used to being bad even their base is tied up in this corruption, and many of them are walking over the edge of the cliff.

How can anyone reach them or help them to save their futures, if they are listening 24/7 to faux news all the time?

It is very hard to crack the veil of propaganda being dished out regularly, many republicans are being taught to be cynical and then lash out angrily at democrats and anyone else who opposes war.

Do you not see what is in scheme here? It is very hard to reach consensus with these types of people. It takes someone who isn't afraid to stick punches to the gut, like chairman Dean to reach consensus with them.

Dean is so fiery he scares many and makes people search for their own answers, and start realizing they were lied to and brainwashed. Trust me that is the only thing needed now, not someone who plays both sides, not in this age.

Doug E.

Comment #83: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 5:14am ET...

Let them eat cake is from the classic division of the classes and the mindset of the elite... this is the party currently in control of this country; not the Democrats.

I don't know why I bother to continue to explain this to you. The Democratic Party is the party of the PEOPLE. The Republican Party is the party of CORPORATE WEALTH.

Like it or not we are a two party system currently.

That is what we have... we have no other choice right now. Take it or leave it.

Seth,

I regret that you see this as some sort of argument or confrontation. This is a blog not a chat room. People post relevant posts and ask questions but the enemy remains the same -- the coup sitting in the executive branch.

They were not elected by the people and have no right to be sitting in the White House (the Peoples' House) or in charge of this nation. The election was stolen and there has never been accountability in the judiciary for this theft.

You come on this blog and demand attention by labeling 'party politics' and complaining about personality associations, family ties, or affiliated memberships ---all of which have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

You have trouble reviewing the information that has been provided on this site for all the good works of the representatives you dismiss... I thought we had already discussed John Kerry and John Rockefeller two nights ago?

Bottom line, please stop swallowing the partisan propaganda and contribute something to the effort.

I'm sorry you're upset and confused with the whole process. You're not alone. But, you must stop being a diversion and become active in some way to effect change instead of just complaining about it.

Comment #84: Rusty said on 7/15/05 @ 5:14am ET...

I rest my case.

Comment #85: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:16am ET...

DE you kidding right?

As for Dean, your kidding right?

I happened to think he should have run instead of Kerry, I like him more than Kerry..

But most Republicans here the words Howard Dean, and they scream. They are not gong to listen to him.

Just think of how awfull it is that the Republicans won't listen to the truth, because it is coming from a Democrat, because The Republicans think that every thing isd about party politics and staying in power, ,,,, then think of how awfull it is that the Democrats publically act like all they are concerned with is getting their party back in power..

This country can not survive so divided.

Seth

Comment #86: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 5:23am ET...

They are supposed to scream Seth,

And wallow in the pain of the horrifying truth. And it will reach them, when Dean awcknowledges that it happened with the likes of DLC elect Evan Bayh too.

The DLC wanted to tell Dean to stuff it, and you know what was the reply? They can stuff it, and we will be sweeping all the corruption out of office.

The republicans will wake up to the fact that these people in the democrats, are going to come down too. Then they will see what has controlled them.

Republicans like that will not wake up from offering a hand over, but instead from a swift kick in the gut. Did you see Cunningham retiring? Republicans getting swiftly kicked and gutted, are realizing the bad truth the hard way.

"A age and era of corruption" said it best, and that's what will be coming down to an end. Democrats said they aren't afraid of weeding out their own in the fallout.

Doug E.

Comment #87: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:23am ET...

Sandra and Rusty

Your false accusations, are expected and understood.

I don't blame you becase you too are brainsoiled.

I have found this blog to be very informing to me, I have learned about PNAC ,and wathced Catastrophe hijacked, amongst alot of other valuable information. Just yestarday I learned about that Sibel lady.

Rusty you shold know that if it were not for Ralph Nader on Cspan Iw ould not have known about DSM, johnconyers.com, and I would not have signed the DSM letter that was delivered to the white house.

Seth

Seth

Comment #88: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:28am ET...

You can't honestly believe that the Democrat party is not the party of Corporate Wealth!

Seth

Comment #89: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 5:32am ET...

The true democratic party is NOT the party of corporate wealth and special interests:

Remember the democrats are the DNC, the false-democrat lites and phones are the DLC. Its that clear and that is what rusty repeated to you over and over...

Corporations and special interest groups always lean to the right and all their cronies who they are allied with.

Kerry took lots of "cash" donations but he never abandoned his values. Otherwise more than half of america wouldn't have voted for him and seen a bad theft. People knew what was going on.

Do not judge the actions of a few on everyone.
Doug E.

Comment #90: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 5:36am ET...

Tell the Administration to Come Clean

Politics drove someone to do a treacherous, potentially criminal thing: a senior administration official leaked the identity of a covert CIA operative. They endangered the agent’s life and compromised our national security in a time of war.

But as it became clear this week that Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove is a subject of the criminal investigation into the leak, the second Bush administration has gone silent. And its operatives have launched a cover-up and smear campaign against anyone raising questions.

This is bigger than politics -- every American should agree that this administration needs to come clean immediately about this leak, and any White House official’s role in it. The only way to pressure this administration is to show that Americans will not tolerate this -- and that every American regardless of party will unite and publicly demand that they come clean.

http://www.democrats.org/page/petition/clean

Comment #91: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:39am ET...

If you can not grasp that the DNC takes the same corporate money as the GOP then you are on the kool aid , just a different flavor.

You try to dismiss me as invalid, I understand why, you have been brainsoiled to react this way.

Seth

Comment #92: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 5:42am ET...

Seth,

Show where all the big money interests are in the DNC.

That means www.democrats.org, of course, so now show where are they?

You may be able to get away with that rhetoric at the DSCC, but Howard Dean and the whole DNC team have traveled the country.

They have OUT-RAISED in funds than any of the clowns in DLC headquarters or anywhere else, on just simple donations from each of us.

They've raised millions of dollars in a matter of weeks, on regular donations from ordinary people. That's it, and this has the corporocrats worried because someone is finally out-fund raising them.....

The one thing nobody wants is the people deciding the agenda, oh is that right? But that's where all the funds are coming from is people right off the street, anyone who chooses to donate.

And they are continuing to roll out faster than ever.

Doug E.

Comment #93: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:44am ET...

I think we should obviously keep the pressure on the CIA leak investigation, but I woul dnot put too much faith in Rove geeting justice.

I completely undertand Mcllelan's
silece. He is just following the law. As much as it disgusts me I understand it, no comment on an ongoing investigation.

Speaking of ongoing investigation, do the rest of you know about that Sibel lady?, I just found out about her yeterday, and signed her petition.

Seth

Comment #94: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 5:53am ET...

DE

How about you get all th information, about the Democrat party and show me that none of their money comes from the same corporate,and special interests that fund the GOP.

I remember that I had decided to ignore you because you just like to go in circles. I am over that though, I still try to find the tid bits of truth in your posts, as scarce as they are. But you seem to really be on track and then you argue just for the sake of argueing it seems. You contradict yourself all the time. The Bush posters on here seem to have their way with you and others who actually keep responding with mindless jibberish, in response to thought out jibberish which is intende to make you look like you don't even know what you are posting about. I have seen it quite often. It is unfortunate though because sometimes you really do make some good points that would other wise not be made.

Do you see me falling for Van's traps, or the Sy Ops officer in Diyala's traps? NO, but you do

Seth
Seth

Comment #95: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 5:58am ET...

What traps?

I just expanded his rhetoric to reveal what he really likes.

Look at this.

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/06/democracy_bonds.php

Corporate interests? If the "corporate interests" are millions of americans now getting involved with their own democracy bonds, then I guess you're right.

There will always be "corporate interests" in politics somewhere, but the question needing to be asked is are THEY in control anymore?

In the democrats party they are not and they are even becoming obsolete. What one special interest group wants and demands, is put on a silver platter in the GOP party. Not so for the democrat party.

So yes please continue, I want your insight.

Doug E.

Comment #96: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 6:04am ET...

DE

If you can not comprehend the topic, then there is no point in me giving you any more details, is there?

You are a liar. You don't want my insight. You think you know it all.

Seth

Comment #97: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 6:08am ET...

Seth, you are the one seemingly making a shouting match out of nothing.

Offer your evidence of this being tied to special corporate interests, or simply close your mouth.

I asked for it several times and am very interested, especially given how corrupt the DLC is.

It is vital given the amount of things happening. So please show me whatever you can, unless its just rumors.

Doug E.

Comment #98: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 6:10am ET...

DE

If you can not comprehend the topic, then there is no point in me giving you any more details, is there?

You are a liar. You don't want my insight. You think you know it all.

Seth

Comment #99: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 6:12am ET...

By the way, my mouth being closed has nothing to do with what I type.

Shouting? Have I been using Caps?

maybe a couple of exclamtion points.

Seth

Comment #100: Rese said on 7/15/05 @ 6:18am ET...

Today the NY Times has this at the headline, and they published a chronology of the leak. Krugman delivered a great editorial about it. The times is calling this the "Turdgate issue.

Mr. Krugman asks how is it possible for the Republican political machine to accept this.

I agree that it's inacceptable behavior and Scheer asks the question did Bush know this or hear of this from Rove?

From what we know from history I think its time to impeach this gang.

Comment #101: Seth Cowen said on 7/15/05 @ 6:19am ET...

Dear Honorable Mr. Conyers

Thank you for supplying this blog.
I hope I have not contributed to it's degeneration.

I feel that I have done all I can here. THere is no point in me offering you my help if you are not going to take it.

Though I may post in the future should I have something relevant to post I will not deprive you.
However, I do not look forward to wasting my time calling upon deaf ears.

Seth

Comment #102: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 6:23am ET...

Comment #6: okcitykid
Cool video... Eric Blumenthal always does a great job!

==========================

Comment #10: GreyHawk121
Excellent links...thanks! Forwarded to Kertis

Comment #103: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 6:25am ET...

Rese... Turdgate issue? rotflmao!

Comment #104: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 6:27am ET...

Well okay then, if that's all the information you provide (ie: no evidence) I see no reason to debate it.

Moving on,

There is some very interesting developments concerning the Rove leak and DSM.

I think this information may provide an eye opener as to when Cheney, officially knew of these CIA agents identities.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0507/S00227.htm

"Lewis Libby, the Vice President's Chief of Staff, told TIME:

"The Vice President heard about the possibility of Iraq trying to acquire uranium from Niger in February 2002. As part of his regular intelligence briefing, the Vice President asked a question about the implication of the report. During the course of a year, the Vice President asked many such questions and the agency responded within a day or two saying that they had reporting suggesting the possibility of such a transaction. But the agency noted that the reporting lacked detail. The agency pointed out that Iraq already had 500 tons of uranium, portions of which came from Niger, according to the International Atomic Energy Administration (IAEA). The Vice President was unaware of the trip by Ambassador Wilson and didn't know about it until this year when it became public in the last month or so. "

Moreover, evidence suggests that President Bush was aware as early as October 2003 that Rove and I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, were the sources who leaked Plame’s undercover CIA status to reporters. And after the president was briefed about the issue the president said publicly that the source of the leak will never be found."

This would appear to fit in with the time Judith Miller stopped by with British Scientist David Kelly, shortly after he went missing....and later turned up suicided.

Interesting that Dick Cheney was full-knowing of this situation...Possible perjury in the case of "never having known Wilson" when he testified to the jury.

Doug E.

Comment #105: GreyHawk121 said on 7/15/05 @ 6:31am ET...

Sanda, Doug, Patriot, Congressman Conyers -

Please reference my earlier comment, #10. Not directly related to Rovegate vis-a-vis Plame's outing, but if the dots all connect it would be a major indication of the levels of corruption, negligence, and impropriety permeating the Administration and the upper echelons of the Republican party, particularly the NeoCon 'dirty trick' machine.

...in other words, could also be a Rovian ploy that backfired...

Comment #106: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 6:37am ET...

An interesting continuing story....

More on David Kelly and Judith Miller's alleged relationship.

http://www.worldnewsstand.net/MediumRare/34.htm

"However, that was belied by Kelly’s actions and communications right up to the morning of the day he disappeared (July 17th). He did not at all appear to be depressed and was looking forward to returning to Iraq to continue the search for weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

However, he did communicate in an e-mail the day before his death that there were “many dark actors playing games.” Ironically, that e-mail was to Judith Miller, the New York Times reporter and CFR stalwart who probably was one of those dark actors. Miller, along with two other women was a close confidante of Kelly’s. The second was Olivia Bosch, a long-time functionary of the CFR’s sister organization in the U.K. the Royal Institute of International Affairs (RIIA). The third was a U.S. Army intelligence agent named Mai Pederson.

In part two of the article, we suggested that Kelly’s mistreatment by MoD had made him a resentful employee and, with all his dangerous knowledge, a prime candidate for elimination.

However, information new to this writer since that article provides a much stronger motive for the assassination of Dr. Kelly.

For several months, Kelly had been communicating with Victoria Roddam, a commissioning editor for Oneworld Publications based in Oxford. One week before Kelly’s death, she had sent him an e-mail that said in part, “I think the time is ripe now more than ever for a title which addresses the relationship between government, policy and war - I’m sure you would agree.” They had been discussing Kelly authoring a book to be published by Victoria’s company. "

Mr. Kelly was also involved with british undercover NOCs with Victoria's company....This may very well have more answers on the Niger incident downing street has been speaking for.

David Kelly was allegedly "cheating" on his wife possibly, but the greater danger here is who he was betrayed by. Something happened out there that connects to the event where the Niger documents showed up as forgeries.

There needs to be a formal investigation team doing a bit of spotchecking it looks like..

Doug E.

Comment #107: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 6:37am ET...

GreyHawk... not long ago I questioned the Pakistan 'blown cover' and now it's all tied in with another 'outing' but at that time the botched operation was contributed to Condi Rice per the links you provided.

per thread topic..."it has become increasingly clear that we need to focus beyond the specific facts of that case -- as important and damaging as they are."

Comment #108: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 6:39am ET...

Does anyone know if there's been any movement on the release of the State Dept. docs they were protecting on Bolton... Has the Senate now been provided these?

Comment #109: GreyHawk121 said on 7/15/05 @ 7:10am ET...

#108 Sandra - I haven't heard, but suspect that if they'd been released, there'd be reason for outcry. Unless released to the Senate under some type of non-disclosure, so they couldn't even express outrage to the press...

Comment #110: Doug Eldritch said on 7/15/05 @ 7:16am ET...

Outrageous!!

Those who are keeping up on election reform....

Over 10,000 registered votes(voters) have been confirmed to be removed from Accenture's registration board in Hocking County, Ohio.

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2005/1164

Talk about evil and manipulative!!!! That many people a huge number who hit the evening exit polls, had their votes destroyed!

And there's evidence of Schwartze covering up illegal money and Triad machine tampering.

This is why they wanted Eaton and the rest fired. This is the sick kind of corruption in Ohio, my god many of these voters were african american!

Their right to vote everyone, was denied!

Doug E.

Comment #111: Rese said on 7/15/05 @ 7:18am ET...

Dear Congreessman Conyors:
Both parties unconditionally support Israel's interests which meddling has brought us to the current "war on terror". In the past blogs I have shown how there are links of high adminstrative officials and their creation of this war in Iraq to defend Israel's interests and that with another (state sponsored)terrorist attack in this country, the probability of a draft and war with Iran.

Yet the Israelis have sold super weapons to China, and now we are faced with issues such as expressed in this article:
China warns US against attack

Friday 15 July 2005,


Zhu said China could not wage conventional war against the US

A senior Chinese general has warned that Beijing was ready to use nuclear weapons against the United States if Washington attacked his country over Taiwan, the Financial Times newspaper reported.

Zhu Chenghu, a major general in the People's Liberation Army(PLA) who said he was expressing his own views and did not anticipate a conflict with Washington, nevertheless said China would have no option but to go nuclear in the event of an attack.

"If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons," he told an official briefing for foreign journalists on Friday.

Zhu said the reason was the inability of China to wage a conventional war against Washington.

Nuclear response

"If the Americans are determined to interfere ... we will be determined to respond," he said.

"Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds ... of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese"

Maj Gen Zhu Chenghu.
PLA, China

"We Chinese will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds ... of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese," he added.

The newspaper observed that it was unclear what prompted the remarks, but noted that they were the most specific by a senior Chinese official in nearly a decade.

During a visit to Beijing earlier this month US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said there should be no unilateral change in the status quo over the disputed island of Taiwan.

"That means that we don't support unilateral moves toward independence by Taiwan. It also means that we are concerned about the military balance, and we'll say to China that they should do nothing militarily to provoke Taiwan," she added.

Israel does not need any more foreign aid money!

Without it, they'd be forced to work out peace with the Palestinians inoder to have a very comfortable Tourist industry.

An expanded war in the Middle East just might prompt Mainland China's decision to invade Taiwan, and a "preemptive" ( Thanks to BUSH and advisors) strike against the US, ushering in a Nuclear Holocausr of the world!

We need to impeach these traitors immediately.

Comment #112: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 8:20am ET...

Thanks to Ohiodem for lead...

Harvey Wasserman

Will traitor Rove follow father figure Nixon's fatal footsteps?
July 14, 2005

Is Karl Rove following in the fatal arrogance of his father figure, Richard Nixon?

Like his equally twisted mentor, Rove is an amoral, mean-spirited gutter fighter. Both share the crime of treason.

With a brutally effective blitzkrieg of dirty tricks, racist manipulation, character assassination and public deceit, Karl Rove has spent a lifetime avenging Richard Nixon's lasting shame.

But Watergate was small potatoes. Nixon's truly impeachable crime was his illegal attack on Cambodia, which sent millions to the killing fields. For that he should have been imprisoned forever, forced to face a 24/7 audio-visual wall blaring the screams of his innocent victims.

Nixon's actual treason came in the 1968 election. On Hubert Humphrey's behalf, Lyndon Johnson was on the brink of signing an October peace deal with North and South Vietnam. A cessation of hostilities would have defeated Nixon.

But Nixon's covert minions intervened. In direct violation of American and international law, the Nixon campaign offered the south Vietnamese a "better deal" if they would reject LBJ's peace overtures.

They did, and seven more years of horrendous slaughter followed. By any legal and moral accounting, Nixon's sabotage of peace talks with foreign government was an act of treason.

~snip

By all accounts, Rove has concocted a horrific string of lies, deceptions and provocations to drag the US into an illegal and catastrophic war. The attractions of oil, war profiteering, personal revenge and Biblical prophecy all had their role to play.

But Rove understood above all that the immensely unpopular George W. Bush stood no chance for a second term unless he could run as a "war President." He needed some armed conflict somewhere. Iraq was the venue of choice. The public rationale was then concocted.

Read the full article here:

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2005/1165

Comment #113: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 8:37am ET...

Comment #111: Rese
Yes, I agree they need to be impeached immediately or forcibly removed if that's easier! They continue to be a threat to our national security and the health and welfare of our nation and the world.

I too just saw this reported by Brian on C-Span.

Just how many countries does this radical cabal in the White House want to threaten to bring about total death in all out nuclear war?

They are insane and they're taking us down the wrong path and right off the cliff. Do they actually think such a war is survivable?

Total human destruction. End of story.

Comment #114: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 8:45am ET...

#23 Sandra - You didn't have an account, so I started one for you. You've received an email with your password, just a couple of minutes ago.

When you log in, update your profile as I probably misspelled your last name. And you need to choose a user name.

Then look on the left side menu and click "Staff" then "SoapBox" then "reports" then "timeline".

Comment #115: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 8:49am ET...

Thanks Patriot,

I have received the email.

I already knew I didn't have an account; as I mentioned earlier each time that I tried to establish one it returned an 'error' message.

Glad you were able to straighten that out for me!

I'll check in later... got to go right now.

Comment #116: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 8:53am ET...

Sandra - OOPS! I need your user name to give you staff priviledges.

Comment #117: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 9:02am ET...

Yawn,

Looks like you guys were wrong again. If she was not a clandestine agent Rove could not have broken the law.

Time to move on(.org)

Reporters going to jail to protect Rove. You have to do better that that if you want anyone to believe you. Novak's the one being protected.

Good try though!

Plame wasn’t undercover when outed
Wilson later told CNN that his wife was no longer in an undercover job at the time Novak’s column first identified her. “My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity,” he said.

Federal law prohibits government officials from divulging the identity of an undercover intelligence officer. But in order to bring charges, prosecutors must prove the official knew the officer was covert and nonetheless outed his or her identity.

Comment #118: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 9:15am ET...

In early 2002, Valerie Plame was an officer in the Directorate of Operations of the CIA task force on counter-proliferation, dealing with weapons of mass destruction, including Saddam's WMD programs. At that time, as she had been for almost two decades, she was an undercover operative. After training at "The Farm," the CIA's school for clandestine agents, she became what the agency considers among its most valuable and dangerous operatives -- a NOC, or someone who works under non-official cover. NOCs travel without diplomatic passports, so if they are captured as spies they have no immunity and can potentially be executed. As a NOC, Plame helped set up a front company, Brewster-Jennings, whose cover has now been blown and whose agents and contacts may be in danger still. After marrying Wilson in 1998, she took Wilson as her last name.

Comment #119: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 9:16am ET...

Poor Seth,

Hay man, I listen, and laugh, and show your post to my buddies here in Iraq. It brightens our day to know we are protecting your right to spew your mendacity.

Dear Honorable Mr. Conyers

Thank you for supplying this blog.
I hope I have not contributed to it's degeneration.

I feel that I have done all I can here. THere is no point in me offering you my help if you are not going to take it.

Though I may post in the future should I have something relevant to post I will not deprive you.
However, I do not look forward to wasting my time calling upon deaf ears.

Seth

hcocdr
(H)H (CO)Compamy (CDR)Commander
I know that was killing you guy's

Comment #120: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 9:17am ET...

Patriot, acknowledge your message and will send email to Erik. thx!

Comment #121: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 9:23am ET...

That novak, we should put him in jail.

Novak's the one being protected.

Comment #122: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 9:31am ET...

Nurse sandy please don’t get an attitude like seth you save me so much time searching the loony sites for the latest gibberish. I enjoy them so.

Comment #123: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 9:32am ET...

Well, Commander it pains me to agree with you... but I must. It would please me if Novak was finally held accountable for his actions. Obviously, he must have more than cooperated with the prosecutor.

I have to disagree however, that he is the 'only' one being protected.

Comment #124: Sandra said on 7/15/05 @ 10:05am ET...

Curiously, the only document cited as the basis for Plame's role was a State Department memo that was later debunked by the CIA. The Washington Post, on Dec. 26, 2003, reported: "CIA officials have challenged the accuracy of the ... document, the official said, because the agency officer identified as talking about Plame's alleged role in arranging Wilson's trip could not have attended the meeting. 'It has been circulated around,' one official said." Even more curious, one of the outlets where the document was circulated was Talon News Service and its star correspondent, Jeff Gannon (aka Guckert). (Talon was revealed to be a partisan front for a Texas-based operation called GOPUSA and Gannon was exposed as a male prostitute, without previous journalistic credentials yet with easy and unexplained access to the White House.) According to the Post, "the CIA believes that people in the administration continue to release classified information to damage the figures at the center of the controversy."

Comment #125: JimmieC said on 7/15/05 @ 10:07am ET...

It's amazing how the Republican’s are attacking Joe and Valerie Wilson who are not at the center of this issue. The Republican's are only interested in protect their party and not America as well as take the focus off of the real issues (all mentioned before).

I wish that we and the media would focus on gathering info on the leak of the Valerie's 20 year old cover company Brewster, Jennings & Associates. How this action has hurt America's National Security (oil/energy is a national security issue)? What intel were they gathering that made it a target for the WH? Were they getting to close to Saudi Arabia bankers (WH friends) that funded the 9/11 attack? Where is there intel and is anyone looking at this? I definitely don’t think that we should go to war based on this intel but would like to know and people held accountable.

Comment #126: epppie said on 7/15/05 @ 10:18am ET...

Rep.Conyers,you are so right. As I interprete your words, the point is that as important as each individual controversey is, what is more important is the increasing clarity of the overall pattern.

The Stonewall is strong, but it's cracking under the pressure of the increasingly evident pattern of lies and (in my view) treasons.

Comment #127: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 10:26am ET...

I wonder if jc would start legislation that would hold congressmen to the some standards as rove when they disclose classified information and make it retroactive.

Comment #128: JimmieC said on 7/15/05 @ 10:38am ET...

The Senate did on Thursday but the voting went along the party lines. U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 1st Session

Comment #129: Jamie said on 7/15/05 @ 10:38am ET...

It is amazing how people still try and discredit Joe Wilson. In the talking points memo the RNC put out, they discredit Cheney much the same way they try and discredit Wilson:

"Vice President Cheney: "I Don't Know Joe Wilson. I've Never Met Joe Wilson. ... And Joe Wilson - I Don't [Know] Who Sent Joe Wilson. He Never Submitted A Report That I Ever Saw When He Came Back."

How did our Secretary of Defense at the time of the first Gulf War not even know who our ambassador to Iraq was?

I have refutted many more of the statements in the talking points memo HERE

Comment #130: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 10:38am ET...

wow! quiet all of a sudden, you must be searching. But I'm way ahead of you guys. You know the answer don't you.

Comment #131: hcocdr said on 7/15/05 @ 10:44am ET...

Nice try but it was the one that followed that one that said congressmen.

The Senate did on Thursday but the voting went along the party lines. U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 1st Session

Comment #132: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 10:49am ET...

#124 Sandra. Good one for the time line. (hint hint) :)

Comment #133: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 10:55am ET...

Sandra, just login and choose a username and just tell me when you do it. You don't have to tell me the user name here unless you want to.

Comment #134: LeslieB said on 7/15/05 @ 11:36am ET...

Dear Rep. Conyers,
There's another aspect to the Plame story, which I find very disturbing. The corporate media continually reports the leak as though it were limited to one CIA asset. But it wasn't. Novak also exposed the CIA cover firm, Brewster-Jennings & Assoc., that Plame ostensibly worked for. Therefore the damage is exponential and includes x number of CIA assets, X number of CIA contacts, and X number of WMD leads. As serious as leaking Plame's name was, the leak goes far beyond Plame alone. I think we really need to make that clear to the media, who repeatedly make the damage sound very limited and contained.

Also, this isn't the first time the administration has burned a CIA operative: Recall the al Qaeda member turned CIA spy, Mohammed Naeem Noor Khan. Remember last year, while Bush's poll numbers were sinking, the Bush administration raised the terror alert and revealed Khan's name while Khan was involved in an al Qaeda sting operation. Khan had infiltrated al Qaeda and we were using him to help us shut down a faction planning London bombings. Khan's cover was blown by the Bush administration and that prematurely ended the sting operation, while we reportedly lost a very critical al Qaeda spy, and possibly his contacts too. The London bombings that just occurred may have been one repercussion of that. See Americablog for support info.

Comment #135: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 12:01pm ET...

#134 Leslie. That's relevant to the time line, I think. Please add it.

Comment #136: Reginald de Curry said on 7/15/05 @ 12:42pm ET...

Media Matters has quite a few topics on the Rove controversy.

http://mediamatters.org/topics/rove-controversy.html

Comment #137: tahoebasha1 said on 7/15/05 @ 12:54pm ET...

Has anyone seen the article written by Joseph C. Wilson in The New York Times, July 6, 2003, entitled, "What I Didn't Find In Africa"???

(see http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm )

tahoebasha1

Comment #138: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 1:24pm ET...

Even in defending Rove, Morris admits Rove did it. He talks about the legality, with no mention of the morality.

Dick Morris writes in The Hill that "The ritualized homicide/suicide" effort against Karl Rove "is well-programmed. A White House insider is accused of doing something, the news media hype the story and, finally, without proof or presumption of innocence, the staffer resigns so as not to become a ‘distraction’ from the president’s agenda." But "maybe this time the cycle can be stopped before it runs its bloody course." Rove "did nothing wrong. The statute he allegedly violated has a number of very specific triggers. The person who reveals the identity of a covert CIA operative has to intend to uncover her identity, know she is a covert operative and know that he is blowing her cover." Bush "should not fire Rove. He should stick by him until or unless the criminal investigation makes it evident that he may have violated the statute. Otherwise, he should stay on the job."

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/Comment/DickMorris/071405.html

Comment #139: LeslieB said on 7/15/05 @ 1:52pm ET...

Comment #135: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 12:01pm ET...

#134 Leslie. That's relevant to the time line, I think. Please add it.



Will do Patriot.

Comment #140: Erik said on 7/15/05 @ 2:27pm ET...

What did I say about Rove and the leaking of Valerie Plame's Identity on the 4th of July?

"When questioning Rove about the outing of Valerie Plame, the questioner must not be limited to asking whether he ‘said her name’. This is not some punk in a police interrogation room on suspicion of sticking up the corner 7-11. Karl Rove is the great "Boy Genius". I'll put money on him ordering someone else to ‘say the name’”.

Sound familiar? Today in the news(Check here and here, the back door has been swung open and Karl "The Rat" Rove is trying to make his escape from justice. This is how he works. Someone needs to lean on this other source to find out if he had discussed her identity with Rove before or during the time period surrounding Valerie’s exposure as a C.I.A. operative. All we would have to do to swing this story back into our favor is to connect Rove with the primary source. That won’t be to hard, considering they both work at the White House.

We must also focus on the subsequent exposure of her contacts. Even if she was no longer working in the field, her sources could still be handed off to her replacement. These were still viable sources that could have provided valuable intelligence on the movement of non-conventional weapons around the world. If Karl Rove gave a shit about National Security (please excuse the necessary expletive), he would have told Novak not to run the story. Not because he would feel bad about screwing Ambassador Joe Wilson and his family, but because it would only serve to blind the C.I.A. in a time that we need all the intel we can get our hands on.

Sandra had asked, in recent days, if there was any validity to the stories of her old contacts overseas have been living under threat of, or have been the victims of violence in connection with the revelation of Valerie's "other job". Has anyone confirmed this story?

We need to focus, not so much on whether Rove was the Press' prime source, but rather, did he order the leak and then confirm the story. When it concerns a political strategist and his confirmation of story from his own subordinates or the subordinates of his boss, it is valid to assume coordination. I still stand by my first thought, that a "Chief Political Advisor" does not have the necessary security clearance to have such information. So, even if he didn't "say the name", how was he in the position to confirm the story? “I heard that too” just doesn’t sit well with me.

Karl Rove needs to be nailed via criminal conspiracy to leak classified information and the identity of a C.I.A. operative who was still an asset to the agency. Just because she wasn’t “in the field” for just about a year over the “5 year” rule dictated in the criminal code, she was still an asset that could be called into action if the situation warranted. And lately, I think that her services and connections would have been called on in the near future had cover not been blown.

Well I have a couple of meeting today, so I’ll check back in a couple of hours. I went to the city yesterday for a permit for my rally, and they said “don’t worry about it”. So I told them that I was going to have a sound system and as far as I know, I still needed a permit. So he is sending the Police Captain who has jurisdiction and told me that they won’t turn me down, but they may stop by and tell me to turn it down a smidgen. I love this town!

Tonight, I’m writing my speech for next Saturday, catching up on the site, and watching the new Stargate SG1 and Atlantis. I can’t wait!

Erik.
SoapBox4Truth.org

Comment #141: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/15/05 @ 3:32pm ET...

van, what does Wilson's credibility have to do with Rove discussing classified information with a journalist? To my understanding, there is no connection. You're spreading misinformation again.
The fact is that Rove committed a serious breach of security when he discussed Wilson's wife to a reporter. Wilson's credibility has nothing to do with it.

By attacking Wilson's credibility you seek to distract people from the fact that Rove breached national security. Since he has done this before, he now displays a pattern of security breaches. Under the rules of security, his clearance should be revoked permanently.

Here, I found a couple of web sites for your education.
http://www.dss.mil/search-dir/training/csg/security/S1class/Need.htm
http://rf-web.tamu.edu/security/secguide/S1class/Secviol.htm

It does not matter if Rove "said the name" or not. He violated security protocols by discussing classified information with a reporter. And this is not his first offence.

Comment #142: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 3:39pm ET...

#41 Jay, please include those on the time line. All relevant information is helpful. Time Line Project

Comment #143: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/15/05 @ 3:46pm ET...

I'm sorry Patriot, I need to head to my wife's place and watch the kids. Her computer still has a bad keyboard (milk, it does the KB bad).
However, the two links I listed are simply background FYI.
However, if anyone has the time, they can mine my archive at http://home.comcast.net/~jdlech/The_Watcher/Abu_Ghraib_Prison_Files.htm Feel free to data mine all you want and even copy documents as you desire. There's a lot there on Abu Ghraib with my own commentary clearly defined so you can tell fact from opinion.

Comment #144: Krackonis said on 7/15/05 @ 4:10pm ET...

Van,

I have seen the conservative "think tanks" that provide a service by trolling libertarian websites and attempt to loudly support the current political regiem. They have been created in many countries to promote the molding of the public as the loudest voices tend to be heard.
You may call me "out" due to my statement, but if I was a betting man I would say you likely work for them too. No one would seriously make the arguements you are making unless you were a) So deeply indoctrinated that the leaders of the United States have a saintly glow about them and are "coming down from God in Heaven to create world peace at the end of a sword", or b) Someone pays you money to do it.

Comment #145: tahoebasha1 said on 7/15/05 @ 4:25pm ET...

See Article in The New York Times today, July 15, 2005 -- "Rove Reportedly Held Phone Talk on C.I.A. Officer"

Also, even if Rove did not mention the name of Wilson's wife (if we can believe anything he says at all) -- it's easy as pie to get that name -- just go to Google.

Suffice it, that this ruthless man, Rove, has put the very life of Plame in a precarious posture, along with many others. He should not only be fired, but he belongs in jail.

Comment #146: Rese said on 7/15/05 @ 4:36pm ET...

CONCERNING "THE TURDGATE SCANDAL"
Media Blog
Stephen Spruiell Reporting
[ home archives email ]

The Markup
Washington Post and NY Times Part of GOP Conspiracy

Washington Post reporter Jim VandeHei has an incredible scoop:

Republicans mounted an aggressive and coordinated defense of Karl Rove yesterday, contending that the White House's top political adviser did nothing improper or illegal when he discussed a covert CIA official with a reporter.
VandeHei’s scoop? Most major news organizations are Republicans! According to this Wall Street Journal editorial:

On the "no underlying crime" point, moreover, no less than the New York Times and Washington Post now agree. So do the 36 major news organizations that filed a legal brief in March aimed at keeping Mr. Cooper and the New York Times's Judith Miller out of jail.

"While an investigation of the leak was justified, it is far from clear — at least on the public record — that a crime took place," the Post noted the other day. Granted the media have come a bit late to this understanding, and then only to protect their own, but the logic of their argument is that Mr. Rove did nothing wrong either.
VandeHei doesn’t mention the media’s role in this GOP offensive, but that’s because the media have adopted the clever strategy of hiding their involvement by pretending to attack Rove and the White House relentlessly at every possible opportunity. What a story! No wonder the Post put it on the front page.

[ 07/13/2005 12:18 PM ]

Comment #147: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 4:45pm ET...

#144 Krackonis - I think you are right. Van and the others are distractions from what we need to focus on, which is getting ever scrap of information possible and putting it in the time line project. As Mr. Conyers noted, all this is falling into place yet we've just begun to scratch the surface. I spent 14 hours today (didn't have to work) working on programming on the time line and researching items for it. One of my typing fingers is numb!

Please, everyone, go to the time line and work on it, too. There's so much more to be done. The more I do, the more I see needs to be done.

If you don't have anything to put into the time line, there are some research needs listed.

TIME LINE PROJECT

Comment #148: Ron said on 7/15/05 @ 5:02pm ET...

Patriot
On the timeline page ,the box with the click on tabs is crunched on my comp. I tried to access your site http://soabox4truth.org/
and cant pull it up on Netscape or IE I would have sent you an e-mail ,but no address!

Comment #149: Genghis Khan said on 7/15/05 @ 6:15pm ET...

Patriot:

Fix entry #11 on the Timeline. The Washington Institute took Cheney's speech down in the first few weeks of 2005. I posted a comment on that entry with a link pointing to recovered text of the speech, but I don't think folks are going to:

A) notice the comment
B) bother to click on it

Seeing as how almost everything Tricky Dick The Second prognosticated in 1991 has come true in 2003-2005, I think it's imperitive that people read his speech and then wonder what might have changed his mind (my re-post contains links to the newamericancentury.org PNAC website).

Comment #150: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 7:08pm ET...

#149 Genghis - Fixed it. Thanks for your contribution. Keep 'em coming!

#148 Ron - I've reduced the size of the header (with the buttons) so it should look better. It works ok with 800x600 resolution. If you are still having trouble with it, leave me a note here.

On SoapBox4Truth.org, I don't see any problem with it. I just went there and checked it. What sort of problem are you having? It's not coming up at all? Giving you a "no site found" error message?

There's a contact form on the web site. The "Support" option goes to Erik, the "Webmaster" option comes to me.

Comment #151: JimmieC said on 7/15/05 @ 7:17pm ET...

The soapbox4Truth.org site works just fine for me to but when you try to go to it from the link associated with your name on this blog page it doesn't go to the site. Looks like the href is wrong.

Comment #152: Patriot said on 7/15/05 @ 7:24pm ET...

OH! That's the problem. Duh! fixed it. Thanks, Jimmie.

Comment #153: Seth Cowen said on 7/16/05 @ 6:18am ET...

hcocdr

I am very happy and proud that I through my post on this blog have brought laughter to you and brightened the days for our brave troops serving in Iraq. Some people close to me tell me that I should return to my happy joke telling self, since I have not told as many jokes since the beginning of our invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Mind if I ask you a few question?

You do want to come home sooner than later right?

Do you like murdering people?
(I understand that in our civilization war is a circumstance when murder is justified)..

Do you want to stop murdering people?

Do you plan on retiring in the military?

Do you plan to return home to your family?

Have you learned from War veterans about the effects of post war trauma?

Are you planning to seek relaxation,and cooling down time after you get out of the war?

Do you think there is a difference between Draft time soldiers and post Draft soldiers.

Do you think we should bring back the draft?

I appreciate the military, even though I kind think about the idea of making a killing machine being bad. I am registered for Selective service.

I can't believe you psyched me into responding to you.

May god let you and the soldiers come home with all of your limbs.

Seth

Comment #154: hcocdr said on 7/16/05 @ 6:51am ET...

Seth

yes
no
yes
yes 22 years national guard
yes
yes
yes
yes
yes
good
sorry
thanks

Seth,
You must only answer yes or no. Have you stopped beating your (wife,girlfriend,boyfriend,mother)?

Comment #155: Seth Cowen said on 7/16/05 @ 6:55am ET...

That my SY OP friend is a trick question, or a funny joke.

Seth

Comment #156: hcocdr said on 7/16/05 @ 7:59am ET...

TUZ,IRAQ--US forces today conducted a Banana Milk attack near the city of TUZ. Most US troops hate Banana Milk and strawberry soda. The stuff just sits out side the mess hall going to waist so the troops loaded it up and along with some other excess food products and took to it to a village that had been giving us trouble. We took an Iraqi Army medical team and the thankful Iraqi's gave us the names and location of some forgien AIF. We thought of that all by ourselves.

The next, and in three revelations that should probably put to bed any questions about whether this could be called a criminal leak, it appears that...

1) A Journalist actually told Karl Rove of Valerie Plame's role, rather than the other way around. Which would mean that, had her name been illegally leaked, it was leaked by somebody other than Karl Rove—and Rove's discussion of Plame was no more illegal than is my own. Rove's mention of "Wilson's wife" to Cooper was merely corroboration of information already in the public domain.

Naturally, the Left will find this utterly implausible, but I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss it as post hoc tail-covering. It comports with Novak's previous description of the event...
On Oct. 1, 2003, Mr. Novak wrote another column in which he described calling two officials who were his sources for the earlier column. The first source, whose identity has not been revealed, provided the outlines of the story and was described by Mr. Novak as "no partisan gunslinger." Mr. Novak wrote that when he called a second official for confirmation, the source said, "Oh, you know about it."

That second source was Mr. Rove, the person briefed on the matter said.
The only remaining questions are 1) who was the first journalist to tell Rove about Wilson's wife, and 2) who told that first journalist? (cue Judith Miller and somebody from the CIA, perhaps?)

2) Last night on CNN, Joseph Wilson suddenly recalled that, oh yeah, his wife wasn't actually "a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity". Which seems like something he could have mentioned previously.

3) USA Today reveals that Wilson's own book provides evidence that Plame would not qualify for protection under The Intelligence Identities Protection Act, since she had not been out of the country in the preceding 5 years...
The alleged crime at the heart of a controversy that has consumed official Washington — the "outing" of a CIA officer — may not have been a crime at all under federal law, little-noticed details in a book by the agent's husband suggest.

In The Politics of Truth, former ambassador Joseph Wilson writes that he and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997. Neither spouse, a reading of the book indicates, was again stationed overseas. They appear to have remained in Washington, D.C., where they married and became parents of twins.
Again, something he might have mentioned when his wife's status was an open question.

So, as far as I can tell, the possibility of a criminal indictment for Karl Rove for "leaking" Valerie Plame's identity is completely off the table. Not only was she not covered by the The Intelligence Identities Protection Act, but Karl Rove (apparently) only found out about it after her participation had been leaked.

The only questions that remain are:

...whether Rove acted unethically by talking about Valerie Plame at all, and..

...who did, in fact, first mention Plame to a journalist.

Comment #157: JimmieC said on 7/16/05 @ 9:20am ET...

You only post 3 of the RNC talking points? Come on you can do better than that. What are you a troll?

Comment #158: Jay Lechnyr said on 7/17/05 @ 9:49am ET...

Point 1. Rove and friends have had plenty of time to hammer out a cover that exculpates everyone involved. They have since had plenty of contact between each other and plenty of incentive to do so. Any good investigator will take this into account.
Point 2. Whether Wilson's wife qualifies for protection or not is irrelevant. Somebody revealed classified information to a reporter. Her status as a protected operative is irrelevant. I've said this before, Wilson's character is irrelevant. All the character assasinations in the world will not alter that fact. Wilson's book is irrelevant, what he said in that book does not alter the fact that there was a breach of national security.
Point 3. Who the first person to leak classified information is irrelevant. That Rove confirmed it is still breeching national security.

No matter how you "fix the facts" around the case, it still comes down to Rove breaching national security.

Comment #159: eoj said on 7/31/05 @ 3:01am ET...

I don't understand will some one please explain,lets say we had a special button that when pushed all corporations would cease to be,everything they were,all that they,did was like it never happened,i wonder how many of you would push that button,and what would America be like with no Corporations,Think it might be like Africa?Perhaps like the middel east? after all 8%the richest in America pay 96.6% of the tax base,so without them we have 3.4% of what is now the tax base,i wonder what that could pay for in that world, in your intitlement programs,? perhaps everyone could get one chicken once a year?perhaps a potato to,i would really like to hear a reply.