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Blogged by JC on 05.23.05 @ 11:22 PM ET

Text of My Resolution Regarding Religious Intolerance


I received a large number of comments, and quite a spirited debate, concerning my resolution opposing religious intolerance, including desecration of the Quran. I appreciate all of the comments, both those supporting and opposing my actions. I continue to believe that given recent events, it is worthwhile for the Congress to actually express its support for the freedom of religion. The resolution was drafted to oppose all religious intolerance. To the extent it mentions the Quran and Islam specifically, that is obviously to respond to those who believe our nation would tolerate disrespect of that religion or its holy book. Clearly we should not, at least in my opinion.

Anyway, below in the extended entry is the full text of H. Res. 288. I hope you agree that read in its totality, it is a fair and appropriate resolution.

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives condemning bigotry and religious intolerance, and recognizing that holy books of every religion should be treated with dignity and respect.

Whereas believers of all religions, including the Abrahamic faiths of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, should be treated with respect and dignity;

Whereas the word Islam comes from the Arabic root word meaning “peace” and “submission”;

Whereas there are an estimated 7,000,000 Muslims in America, from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds, forming an integral part of the social fabric of America;

Whereas the Quran is the holy book for Muslims who recite passages from it in prayer and learn valuable lessons about peace, humanity and spirituality;
Whereas it should never be official policy of the United States Government to disparage the Quran, Islam, or any religion in any way, shape, or form;

Whereas mistreatment of prisoners and disrespect toward the holy book of any religion is unacceptable and against civilized humanity;

Whereas the infringement of an individual’s right to freedom of religion violates the Constitution and laws of the United States: Now, therefore, be it

1 Resolved, That the House of Representatives–

(1) condemns bigotry, acts of violence, and intolerance against any religious group, including our friends, neighbors, and citizens of the Islamic faith;

(2) declares that the civil rights and civil liberties of all individuals, including those of the Islamic faith, should be protected;

(3) recognizes that the Quran, the holy book of Islam, as any other holy book of any religion, should be treated with dignity and respect; and

(4) calls upon local, State, and Federal authorities to work to prevent bias-motivated crimes and acts against all individuals, including those of the Islamic faith.

Replies: 902 Comments


Comment #1: ljm said on 5/23/05 @ 11:49pm ET...

I'm for anything that will help people to get along, Mr. Conyers. I know there will be others who have commented on your previous post who won't like it, that is their choice made of their own free will. I hope they are able to show respect for what you are trying to do here, even if they continue to disagree. The rest of us want to know America stands for religious tolerance. Also America is a place with a separation between church and state. Thanks for your efforts, Mr. Conyers.



Comment #2: Leslie said on 5/24/05 @ 12:04am ET...

Thank you Rep. Conyers. I think your proposal is timely and appropriate.



Comment #3: Doug Kenline said on 5/24/05 @ 12:07am ET...

Good blogging Sir. Thank you very much.



Comment #4: Ohiodem1 said on 5/24/05 @ 12:50am ET...

Thank you.



Comment #5: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 6:20am ET...

The war between religions has grown enormously in recent years, so I believe this is an important resolution.

I hope that soon there will be legislation that guarantees the right NOT to participate in religion. A large number of Americans consider themselves non-religious, agnostic, or atheist...and this group is routinely characterized as being immoral or "Satan worshipers" by nearly all religious groups.

Secular Humanists are only under verbal attack so far, so we're far down on the list of things to worry about. "Faith Based Everything" concerns me for the future, but protecting Muslims NOW is crucial.

Great job Sir.



Comment #6: Kryten42 said on 5/24/05 @ 7:45am ET...

Agree with the above Sir. :-)

There is nothing there that any true Christian can find fault with, since the Bible teaches (above all else) love and tolerance. To paraphrase St. Paul "Be all things to all men so that you might win them for the Lord Jesus". :-)

Of course, the right-wing nutters will disagree with that. But they are false Christians at best.

Thank you Rep. Conyers. :-)



Comment #7: jeff said on 5/24/05 @ 8:32am ET...

I am very much offended that you would specifically mention Islam in your resolution. Perhaps this is because you have a large number of Muslims in your state and you are pandering - again.

This resolution is short sited considering Islam's position on gays & lesbians:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm

The Qur'an and Homosexuality:
There are five references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

I urge all of you to review this web site and then make a determination as to whether you will support Conyer's short sighted resolution.



Comment #8: Reginald de Curry said on 5/24/05 @ 9:13am ET...

I do not consider the resolution short-sighted in any way. The resolution condemns prejudice and endorses tolerance, precisely what is needed right now. Islam is singled out because it is currently one of the most visible targets.



Comment #9: paul said on 5/24/05 @ 9:23am ET...

Jeff, I don't see how Conyer's resolution is in any way an advocacy for Islam or for the Koran.

I see it as an advocacy for religious tolerance and respect and I don't see how anyone can legitimately object to that.

Newname, isn't it interesting how some folks on the right wing are constantly working on the demonization of more words and phrases? Now not only is "liberal" a bad word in the eyes of many, but "secular humanist" is a bad phrase, "relativist" is another bad word and "tolerance" is one some folks are working on real hard.

Here's a thought from John Leland,1791, that some might to well to consider: "...where there has been the greatest freedom from religious oppression,where liberty of conscience is entirely enjoyed, there has been the greatest revival of religion; which is another proof that true religion can and will prevail where it is left entirely to Christ."



Comment #10: Dan said on 5/24/05 @ 10:21am ET...

I thought that this picture taken from the Marine Corps website was appropriate for this thread. sorry if someone else has posted it. there has been quite an UPTICK in posters. :)

via americablog

New Testament

i recommend clicking on the link at americablog for the full picture.

hearts and minds :/



Comment #11: paul said on 5/24/05 @ 11:10am ET...

Dan,thanks for the link. If that's legit, it strikes me as very disturbing.

I mean, yeah, it's funny as a pun. I can see how some joker found it irresistable.

But as an American, I am sickened at the idea of a tank being labeled as a mouthpiece of religion. Of any religion.



Comment #12: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 11:35am ET...

I'm confused. How is Islam any more homophobic than any other organized religion?



Comment #13: Dan said on 5/24/05 @ 11:38am ET...

Paul,
You can link directly to that pic from the Marine Corps website story. Scroll down to the bottom. Its the middle one. Someone needs to get those guys to clean it off.

Too lazy to tag. The thrill is gone! :)

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/20055187145



Comment #14: Dreadmore said on 5/24/05 @ 11:52am ET...

Athiests Against Islam

I have to tell you that the religious fanatics of islam are worse than any other religion on the face of the planet. The misogynist Conyers wish to protect islam and enshrine it as a national religion will fail. conyers will be gone at the next election, he soon will be back home sitting on his porch bowing toward mecca on his prayer rug, but he will not be doing it in washington. he no longer has support.

go to the web-site for more information on what conyers seeks to protect. women, you need to learn this stuff REAL FAST!!

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamwhitewash.htm



Comment #15: jeff said on 5/24/05 @ 12:10pm ET...

Kucinich has taken part in other CAIR events recently, including a Ramadan iftar, or fast breaking, on Capitol Hill hosted by Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich. That event was co-sponsored by Reps. Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., Kucinich, Conyers, D-Ohio, Loretta Sanchez, D-Calif., and Barbara Lee, D-Calif.

CAIR came under fire in the last year as individuals associated with the organization were indicted on federal terrorism charges.

Ghassan Elashi, a founding board member of the Texas chapter of CAIR, was indicted Dec. 17, 2002, in the northern district of Texas for engaging in financial transactions with Hamas leader Musa abu Marzook.

Ismail Randall Royer, a CAIR communications specialist between 1997 and October 2001, was indicted by a grand jury in the eastern district of Virginia in June 2003, on charges that he and 10 other Muslim men were part of a conspiracy to support violent jihad overseas. According to the indictment, Royer traveled to Pakistan and trained with automatic weapons at a training camp associated with Lashkar E-Tayyiba.

CAIR's former director of community relations, Bassam Khafagi, was indicted in January on bank fraud charges.

So why DID Rep. Conyers host this CAIR event?



Comment #16: theresa coon said on 5/24/05 @ 12:21pm ET...

i've never written to any government person, but i'm becoming more and more concerned with our countries intolerance of religious freedom. I had stopped watching the news because they didn't seem to be reporting anything like news. i am now reading news on-line and i'm more satisfied. please keep on the story about the tony blair memo. thanks and i will continue to watch what is going on.



Comment #17: Dreadmore said on 5/24/05 @ 12:28pm ET...

WIFE BEATING IN ISLAM

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

Women have fought to hard and too long to overcome injustice, and now conyers seeks to bring them under the bondage of islam. Women stand up for your right, or you will loose them faster than you can imagine..we are here to help.



Comment #18: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 12:44pm ET...

Loose: not tight

Lose: what Republicans will do in 2006



Comment #19: Paul said on 5/24/05 @ 12:58pm ET...

Interesting question, jeff.



Comment #20: factual said on 5/24/05 @ 1:17pm ET...

re: Comment 15.

It appears Mr. COnyers will toady up to even terrorist supporting organizations if it means a few bucks in his campaign coffers.

I would like to know just how much CAIR has donated to Conyers and I would like to know just how much money OTHER Radical Islamic fronts have contributed to COnyers.

If you google COnyers and Islam and or Muslim you will see that a very large number of such organizations in the US seem to speak VERY WELL of Mr. Conyers.

I ask him to know reveal in total how much his campaign and PACS have received from such interests. Failure for him and others that signed this resolution of his to tell us which prime proof that he and everyone else that singed this resolution have received a LOT OF MONEY from them.



Comment #21: paul said on 5/24/05 @ 1:33pm ET...

Wikipedia:
...
CAIR representatives have been included in several public functions hosted by United States President George W. Bush a few weeks after the September 11, 2001 attacks. CAIR had previously endorsed Bush for president during the 2000 presidential election.

...



Comment #22: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 1:38pm ET...

Other elected official receive "LOTS OF MONEY" from radical Christian groups that shoot doctors. What's the difference?

Oh wait, I get it. You're applying the terrorist label to all Muslims, just as you would apply the immoral label to all atheists.

If radical Islam is such a problem for you, why support the war in Iraq? Saddam was running a secular society where people were free to practice their religions, including Christianity. GWBush is turning Iraq into another radical Islamic theocracy.



Comment #23: Dan said on 5/24/05 @ 1:44pm ET...

via opensecrets.org
campaign contributions for John Conyers

click on the little plus signs for a breakdown.

You could do the same with Tom Delay or one of the other Republican leaders. You don't have to ask them.



Comment #24: bluesman said on 5/24/05 @ 1:48pm ET...

Warning: this will be anti-religious freedom so most fo you may wish to move on.
John, our country was founded on Religious Tolerance. This insured freedom from religious persccution.
Where the hell is my freedom from religious persccution?
You want to appease the Muslims? Their good book says Christians and Jews are the infidels and their religious freedom is to smite,(kill), the infidels, a fact.
Lets look at Ireland. Catholics and Protestants disagree so much that they kill each other. Jews are the chosen ones and everybody else is not. How sanctimonious is this? Sounds just like a Morman. Baptists and Christian Fundamentalists all believe their right and can go around shooting Doctors and bombing abortion clinics. They think their moral values should govern the whole USofA. Which brings us around to our pResnit, George W Bush. This man has declared persons such as myself, Terrorists. Why, because I'm pro-choice, anti-war, pro-environment, question his leadership, and do not believe in any form of deity.
I do not deny you sir, or anyone their faith, but the idea of Religious Freedom, Sheesh! Better fall back a little here.
Where is my freedom from religious persccution? Thank you.



Comment #25: Dan said on 5/24/05 @ 1:55pm ET...

Okay I had about ten pages open and thats not the link I wanted.
If you have a question on where the money comes from or where it goes opensecrets.org has it all



Comment #26: wwrwtw said on 5/24/05 @ 2:11pm ET...

I would like to see a breakdown of political contributions for Mr Conyers....Who and how much they contributed



Comment #27: Vyan said on 5/24/05 @ 2:22pm ET...

There are many different teligions, and many different views even within the same religion. Some believe that homosexuality and Christianity (or Islam) are not mutually exclusive - but that which all religions abhor is actually cruelty, assault and sexual violence (against either males or females)

Vyan



Comment #28: Dreadmore said on 5/24/05 @ 2:25pm ET...

“....While racism is unacceptable, an attack on Islam and Islamic states and laws is not only permissible but a requisite given the indescribable violence and misogyny meted out by Islam in political power. Progressive norms and secularism are the results of enlightenment and just struggles against this very sort of reaction.

Condemning Islam isn't Racist by Maryam Namazie
IRANIAN SECULAR SOCIETY

Since 9/11 there has been an explosion in the number of books written about Islam. My local library has many books on the subject and nearly all of those books are written by Muslim apologists as well as Western scholars in an attempt to cover up the true nature of Islam. A typical whitewash is “What Muslims Believe” by John Bowker. The author interviews several Islamists from Britain on various topics. On the subject of wife beating pages 127 to 130, the Islamist tells us that the beating is a mild one aimed to prevent divorce and to keep the family intact. He goes on to explain that a husband can chastise his wife in private for infidelity and thus save her the humiliation of a public flogging. The Islamist conceals the fact that the sharia penalty for extramarital sex is stoning.

“At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” George Orwell

Whenever anyone points out to the dreadful treatment of women in Muslim countries, apologists are quick to point out that women in pre-Islamic Arabia had no rights and that Islam elevated their status. Pre-Islamic Arabia was inhabited by many different tribes with diverse cultures. In some tribes women were mere chattels, unwanted baby girls were buried alive and widows were inherited by male relatives. In tribes where women had high status, women could practice polyandry, divorce their husbands and engage in trade. Muslims insist that tradition and not Islam is to blame for horrible treatment of women in Islam afflicted countries. Passing the buck on to tradition may be very convenient but it does not absolve Islam. One would think that in the course of fourteen centuries, Islam would have succeeded in eradicating these injustices against women, after all Islam is way of life not just a religion for Sundays. It has specific rules on all aspects of life from which hand to hold the Qur'an with, to rules on slavery and banking. Instead, tradition had become so intertwined with religion that one props up the other.

Muslim apologists and their Western allies, never tire of telling us how Islam has been misunderstood and that Westerners have got it all wrong. They incessantly repeat that Islam is a religion of peace and point to Qur'anic verses such as: “Let there be no compulsion in religion” Qur'an 2:258 and “To you be your Way, and to me mine.” Qur'an 109:6. There is no mention of the fact that these verses were “revealed” when Muslims were few in number and subject to ridicule by the pagans. Later, as Mohammad and his followers gained ground, the above verses were abrogated by the ones which commanded war and bloodshed. http://www.hraic.org/the_hardening_of_muhammad.html

Furthermore, anyone criticising Islam is liable to accusations of racism and intolerance. Let's not forget that Islam is not a race but an ideology, disliking a particular ideology does not make one a racist. If I were to criticize Nazism nobody would accuse me of being racist against Germans. Even some feminist women's organizations are reluctant to comment on Islam, they seem to be preoccupied about raunchy CHIKO ROLL posters in fish 'n chip shops than the oppression of women in Muslim communities and countries. They have been taken in by a distorted view of multiculturalism and political correctness and are blind to the fact that Islam is the antithesis of multiculturalism. The essence of multiculturalism is harmony and coexistence of different cultures within the legal framework of a secular and egalitarian society. Islam on the other hand, is a totalitarian, absolutist and intolerant ideology resistant to modernity, human rights and social change

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamwhitewash.htm



Comment #29: Vyan said on 5/24/05 @ 2:43pm ET...

Rep. Conyers specific Campaign Contributions are listed Here.

2003-2004 Total Receipts: $533,909
2003-2004 Total Spent: $534,363

Go ahead and dig for your dirt, and we'll be glad to compare it to Tom DeLay.

2003-2004 Total Receipts: $2,909,844
2003-2004 Total Spent: $3,143,559

As a matter of fact, how about how much money all members of Congress have received and given to Tom DeLay - who has reportedly recieved some of that money and gifts from lobbyists and foreign contributors, not to mention his support for Saipan Sex Trade and Sweatshops?

As it turns out, all but five Republican members of Congress haven't recieved money from, or contributed to DeLay criminal defense fund. If his money is "dirty", and he's turned it over to them - they're dirty too.

Think carefully: Do you really think you can win an anti-Democrat campaign ethics debate with so many Republicans with their hands so deep in the cookie jar?

Vyan



Comment #30: vyan said on 5/24/05 @ 2:52pm ET...

Corrected Saipan Link.

Speaking of religion and DeLay, it is ironic that such a so-called devout Christian would accept money from people who victimize children, and then use it to block legislation - authored by fellow Republican (former Sen Frank Murkowski) - in order to allow these activities to remain legal in U.S. terroritories of the Mariannas.

Deeply held Christian (or other religious) values, should not simply be a bumper-sticker or refrigerator magnet -- it should be guide on how one conducts their lives and how one treats others.

Vyan



Comment #31: wwrwtw said on 5/24/05 @ 2:52pm ET...

This is not a democrat/republican issue. WHY do we need a resolution specifically for Islam?
If Mr.Conyers wants to believe Islam is a religion then so be it but the government has NO right to DEMAND that I or anyone else MUST be tolerant to an ideology that seeks to convert, oppress, or kill me. NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER!!!



Comment #32: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 3:06pm ET...

My Rep is the number one recipient of DeLay Dirty Dollars for my state, and the only one in the state to contribute to his defense fund. That's why I've "adopted" John Conyers, Jr.

The written Quran is about as relevant to modern Islam as the Bible is to modern Christianity. There are radical fundimentalists who follow the literal word, and there are people who pick and choose the parts they like. Attacking a religion for the actions of the fundimentalists causes hatred, and is part of why we've lost 14 US soldiers in the past 3 days.

Live and let live.



Comment #33: dj said on 5/24/05 @ 3:41pm ET...

If this is about tolerance, than Islam is the ONE religion to be LEFT OUT...not included. They are the ones attacking innocent civilians unexpectedly, over NOTHING, except their INTOLERANCE. Good grief, people. Do some research on history....Islam has been fighting, killing, raping for thousands of years. Wake UP !!!



Comment #34: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 3:46pm ET...

The resolution is essentially a statement that purports to elevate the group who makes it above the U.S. Constitution. Why is islam afforded with especial protection? Is the religion of the 19 terrorists who wantonly murdered some 3,000 Americans without warning on September 11, 2001, more deserving of adulation and protection that the multitude of religions, and even the non-religious athiests, that were PEACEFUL and MURDERED NO ONE ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001!?! What a perverted sense of logic and rationality is Mr. Conyers afflicted with!?!?

The resolution is political pandering to an isolated and evil group of people who are following a pseudo-religion founded by a pedophile, mohamet (intentionally mispelled and not capitalized because he was such a dog butt sucking swine before he joined the false god (small "G") allah in HELL).

islam deserves ridicule, contempt and its supporters as close a watching as if we were in the 1930's in Nazi Germany and the islamic practitioners were BROWNSHIRTS. The American people need to study and learn from History to prevent an escalation of the bolldbath. Lets not adopt the pro-terrorist resolution of Mr. Conyers. islam wants you converted into a muslim, paying a huge tax, or dead.... THOSE ARE THE AIMS OF iSLAM... They state it in every communique'. We should not let the Dhimmi's blindly ignore it. The evil is putting the truth of its evil existance out ther for alll of us to read when it routinely brags:

"AND YOUR BRITHERS IN THE AL QUAEDA NETWORK IN MESOPOTAMIA WILL CONTINUE IN THEIR FIGHT AGAINST THE UNBELEIVERS AND THE APOSTATES UNTIL THE WORD OF GOS RULES OVER ALL THE COUNTRIES AND THEIR PEOPLE."

The "god" that the islamic terrorists are routinely referring to is the false god allah...

May people not be decieved into providing unjustified philosophical protection to islam.



Comment #35: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 4:39pm ET...

Islam calls for my death the enslavement of my child and the raping of my wife as pious actions for allah.

SO that islam can be the dominate law giver in America that you find time to reslove that it should be respected rather than destroyed shows me you have an anti american agenda and do not wish to abide by the oath of office you took and should be removed and arrested tried for treason sedition and executed.

Where do you think Usama Bin laden got his ideas?
911 report

Thus our strategy must match our means to two ends: dismantling the al
Qaeda network and, in the long term, prevailing over the ideology that contributes
to Islamist terrorism.

page 22 of 31 of 911 summary

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/22_07_04911execsum.pdf

In addition to making anticipated findings on the 2001 plot and recommendations for homeland security, the commission offered a series of foreign policy prescriptions to correct what it suggests is an unbalanced global strategy. The effort is to shift the government away from focusing on what the report calls a "generic evil," and toward a more precise definition of the threat.

The report argues that the nation's enemy consists of two parts: al Qaeda -- a stateless network of terrorists that is "weakened but continues to pose a grave threat" -- and a radical ideological movement in the Islamic world that "is gathering and will menace Americans and American interests long after" Osama bin Laden is gone.

"The enemy goes beyond al-Qaeda to include the radical ideological movement inspired in part by al-Qaeda that has spawned other terrorist groups," the report said. It calls not only for the dismantling of al-Qaeda but an ideological battle against fundamentalist Islam.

google taqyyia and dhimmitude



Comment #36: Satan's Daughter said on 5/24/05 @ 4:44pm ET...

Dearest Rep. Conyers,
Now you say ALL religions, but you specifically mention the Abrahamic religions. Why? Is there any religion more misunderstood and maligned than Satanism? We Satanists vote too, and there are a lot more of us than you may think.
Hail Satan!



Comment #37: Nana said on 5/24/05 @ 4:44pm ET...

Hmmm... What does the Bible say?
Exodus 23:24
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works. But thou shalt utterly overthrow them and quite break down their images.
Translation: Do not allow others to worship a different god.
Conquer them and destroy their religious property.



Comment #38: Sobiesky said on 5/24/05 @ 4:45pm ET...

Educate yourself and understand

Also, google taqiyya and kitman.



Comment #39: Nana said on 5/24/05 @ 4:55pm ET...

Oops! I forgot to leave a verse for Mr Horsley, the mule whisperer:
Genesis 22:19
Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

But I would recommend thearpy.



Comment #40: Reginald de Curry said on 5/24/05 @ 4:56pm ET...

Interesting. So intolerance is justified by intolerance? Doesn't make much sense to me.



Comment #41: factual said on 5/24/05 @ 4:57pm ET...

Nan:

You must not be a Christian or you would know that the OLD Testament is Hebrew law. Jesus Christ was sent to redeem us and as a result we follow the guidance of the NEW Testament, not the old. The OLD Testament was God's law for survival in a period before he sent his son to die for our sins and give us salvation.

Islam has no such "New Testament". They still believe the Quaran is the literal word of God as given to Muhammed by the Angel Gabriel (some say Satan impersonating the angel Gabriel).

I encourage you to go to a book store and pick up a copy of it and review some of what they think God intended for them to do to others that do not follow his word literally as in the Quran.



Comment #42: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 5:09pm ET...

From the anti villification trial
After this Pastor Scot referred to a letter to the editor in the Maccabean of September
14, 2001, p.3:
A few years ago, just after arriving in Sydney from Cairo, the then Grand Mufti
of Australia was interviewed by a reporter from the Australian Jewish News.
The Mufti stated that the moment Australia becomes 51% Moslem, it will be a
Moslem country. The reporter asked him about the other 49% and he replied
that they would ‘convert or leave’.



Comment #43: Jeff said on 5/24/05 @ 5:10pm ET...

Some religions are more equal than others, I guess.

Mr. Conyers, you are a dhimmi of the first class.



Comment #44: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 5:31pm ET...

Wow. The anti-Islam posts outnumber the supporters of Mr Conyer's resolution by about 2 to 1 here. I had no idea that hatred for a religion could be this prevalent.

This is why I steer clear of ALL organized religions...I don't hate anybody. They might hate me, but no Muslim has ever told me that.

I do know that they hate the US foreign policy, and Bush, but I think I'm probably alright with most of them.

A fanatic is a fanatic is a fanatic, no matter what holy book they carry around.



Comment #45: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 5:36pm ET...

islam might make me believe in infanticide as practiced in the U.S.A. .... Oh I forgot, we call it "a woman's right to choose, not murder.... It just sounds prettier that way... who could begrudge a lady a choice.... even if it is to kill her child in the womb..." ;-)



Comment #46: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 5:39pm ET...

newname.... your Crystal Ball apparently has malfunctioned.... (see your #18 post)

I am intolerant of those who would kill my family, and the families of those who I know and care for who are not deceived muslims ... GUILTY, .... AND STILL A PROUD AMERICAN!



Comment #47: Parabellum said on 5/24/05 @ 5:55pm ET...

Anybody who supports special rights for moslems is living a death wish.

Conyers, you're a dhimmi. I hope you're happy with the idea of your daughters in hopsacks walking five steps behind their wife-beating husbands, because kowtowing to these inbred misogynists is a recipe for disaster.

Know your enemy.



Comment #48: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 6:02pm ET...

Wont be long will it?

Trial over Italian Islam 'insult'
Controversial Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci is to face trial for allegedly insulting the Muslim faith in her latest book, a court in Italy says.

Ms Fallaci is being sued by the head of the Muslim Union of Italy, who says The Force of Reason is defamatory.

The journalist caused an uproar with The Rage and the Pride, published two weeks after the 11 September attacks.

In it, she said Western culture was superior to Islam and Muslim immigrants in the West had "multiplied like rats".

Her lawyers have defended her right to express controversial opinions.

"At the heart of her thinking is the following reasoning: the fight against Islamic terrorism is made more difficult by intellectual terrorism cloaked in anti-racism," Gilles Goldhagen, said in 2002, when a French judge was hearing a case to ban The Rage and the Pride.

'No good Islam'

The Force of Reason is said to have gone to print about 24 hours after the 11 March 2004 train bombings in Spain.

In it, Ms Fallaci argues that Europe is turning into "an Islamic province, an Islamic colony" and that "to believe that a good Islam and a bad Islam exist goes against all reason".

Italian preliminary investigative judge Armando Grasso ordered the formulation of charges against the author, saying the book had expressions which were "unequivocally offensive to Islam".

Adel Smith, president of the Muslim Union of Italy, sued the writer on 8 April 2004. He says Ms Fallaci has been advocating and spreading hate against Islam and Muslims, sometimes by allegedly distorting real historical facts and inventing others.

The case is being tried in the northern town of Bergamo, where the book was published. The prosecution has 10 days to come up with a charge.

Ms Fallaci, who lives in New York, was a Resistance fighter in World War II and a former war correspondent.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/...ope/4576663.stm

Published: 2005/05/24 18:21:05 GMT



Comment #49: Kira said on 5/24/05 @ 6:03pm ET...

You GO NewName Girl! Words of sanity and reason!

Obviously, bigotry and racism is alive and well in this country (and Canada -- Ed B.)

Well done, Representative Conyers - yet again.



Comment #50: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 6:20pm ET...

I guess you have pleased the islamic apologist on this thread, kira...

*I wonder how kira know I am in Canada??? LOL*



Comment #51: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 6:20pm ET...

Kira is a bigot who supports murder.Conyers is behind her 100%
http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/9.htm

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”



Comment #52: RAG said on 5/24/05 @ 6:31pm ET...

Conyers, Take a HIKE!



Comment #53: Kira said on 5/24/05 @ 7:04pm ET...

:smile: !!!



Comment #54: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 7:08pm ET...

Saudis Do Destroy Bibles, Think Tank Affirms
By Patrick Goodenough
CNSNews.com International Editor
May 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - A U.S.-based think tank critical of the Saudi government has added its voice to allegations that authorities in the kingdom routinely destroy Bibles.

"As a matter of official policy, the government either incinerates or dumps Bibles, crosses and other Christian paraphernalia," the Saudi Institute said in an article posted on its website.

"Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Koran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, and is confiscated and destroyed by government officials," it said.



Comment #55: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 7:08pm ET...

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200505/FOR20050523b.html

Saudis Do Destroy Bibles, Think Tank Affirms
By Patrick Goodenough
CNSNews.com International Editor
May 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - A U.S.-based think tank critical of the Saudi government has added its voice to allegations that authorities in the kingdom routinely destroy Bibles.

"As a matter of official policy, the government either incinerates or dumps Bibles, crosses and other Christian paraphernalia," the Saudi Institute said in an article posted on its website.

"Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Koran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, and is confiscated and destroyed by government officials," it said.



Comment #56: wwrwtw said on 5/24/05 @ 7:37pm ET...

Hezbollah's U.S. Haven
By Washington Times
The Washington Times May 24, 2005

Aside from al Qaeda, no terrorist group has killed more Americans than Hezbollah, which is bankrolled by Iran to the tune of at least $100 million a year. Hezbollah's main theaters of operation are Lebanon, its home country (where it killed hundreds of Americans during the 1980s), and the West Bank and Gaza, where it helps Palestinian rejectionists target Israel. But the group is active in the United States as well. Hezbollah is believed to have cells in at least 10 U.S. cities.

Although the organization has yet to launch an attack on U.S. soil, its U.S. activities are far from benign. Its work in this country has two major purposes: One is to raise money and smuggle arms to Hezbollah fighters, often by criminal activities ranging from credit-card fraud to cigarette smuggling; and the other is to conduct surveillance behind enemy lines, with a possible eye toward launching attacks on U.S. targets in the event of an armed conflict between the United States and Tehran. Like his backers in Iran, Hezbollah boss Hassan Nasrallah routinely denounces the United States and Israel as his organization's main enemies. Given the events of September 11, and given Hezbollah's own record of kidnapping, torturing and killing Americans when it has had the opportunity, we ignore the group's operations in this country at our peril.

Outside of metropolitan Detroit, last month's arrest of Nemr Ali Rahal, a 41-year-old businessman, at his Dearborn home on charges of smuggling funds to Hezbollah, went largely unreported by the news media around the United States. But the story deserves our attention. In Mr. Rahal's house, agents found a videotape of a Hezbollah rally he attended in Lebanon three years ago. The FBI said it found $600 worth of change in buckets in the Rahal home, and that he said the money was meant to go to "orphans" -- the children of suicide bombers. Mr. Rahal has been charged with stealing more than $400,000 by means of credit-card fraud. When Mr. Rahal returned Feb. 9 from a trip to Canada, Customs agents found traces of explosives on his passport.

In March, Mahmoud Kourani of Dearborn pleaded guilty to providing material support for Hezbollah. He will be sentenced next month. Kourani ( whose brother is Hezbollah's chief of military security in southern Lebanon) is an illegal alien who sneaked into the United States from Mexico in February 2001. Federal authorities have repeatedly arrested suspected Hezbollah operatives for attempting to smuggle night-vision goggles and other military equipment to the organization. One suspect, arrested in 1998, skipped bail and fled to Lebanon before returning to the United States last year to face federal charges. In 2003, a federal court convicted a Hezbollah cell based in Charlotte, N.C., on charges of aiding Hezbollah by operating a cigarette-smuggling ring. The leader of that group, Mohammed Hammoud, received 155 years in prison.
_



Comment #57: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 7:38pm ET...

Ed B, Re: A woman's right to choose...

I have already raised 4 children to adulthood. But, if I were raped and impregnated tomorrow, you anti-abortionists would force me to carry the pregnancy to term and give birth, regardless of my personal health, employment or financial status.

Give birth to a child I don't want, from a father I don't love.

Give birth to a child likely to have Down's Syndrome or other birth defects due to my age, which is "still young enough, yet too old".

And then, you'd come over and adopt it, RIGHT??

Give me a break. No matter what the topic is here, you trolls pull the abortion card by the 50th post.

It's no wonder this blog turns into a 7th grade locker room towel fight every day.

We get it, Mr Conyers gets it. You hate Muslims, you hate abortion, you hate liberals, you hate John Conyers, you hate me. Got any more hate you'd like to share?



Comment #58: wwrwtw said on 5/24/05 @ 7:53pm ET...

Moslem Cleric Calls for Revenge Against Britain on PA TV
Tuesday, May 24, 2005 / 15 Iyar 5765

In a sermon broadcast live on TV supervised by the Palestinian Authority, a cleric affiliated with Hamas, says Islam must rule over the U.S. and Great Britain, and exact revenge against the British.

A Moslem cleric called for exacting revenge against Great Britain in a virulent sermon broadcast live on Palestinian television on Friday, May 13. The cleric, Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiras, who has become a symbol of Palestinian hatred of Israel and the Western world, said the day will come when Islam “will rule Britain”.

“We hold this opportunity to hold Britain accountable and say there is revenge we can never forget. We cannot forego the revenge we want to exact from Britain. We hold Britain responsible for what happened in Palestine. Britain is the cause, till this very minute, of every drop of blood dripping in this land,” Mudeiras told Arab viewers in the Palestinian Authority.

Mudeiras set forth an Islamic program for world domination, claiming that Islam will ultimately prevail and rule both Britain and the United States.

“I say to you: You must look at our situation with an outlook of confidence in Allah's victory! If you help Allah [spread Islam], Allah will bring you victory. We once ruled the world and the day will come when, by god, we will rule the entire world.

“The day will come when we will rule the United States, the day will come when we will rule Britain, we will rule the whole world [and all will live in peace and comfort under our rule] except the Jews. The Jews will not live in peace and comfort under our rule. Treachery will keep being their nature throughout history. The day will come when the whole world will rid itself of the Jews.”

Mudeiras’ speech was filled with anti-Semitic invective, rivaling some of the worst propaganda to come out of Nazi Germany. See article, “Subjugate Christians, Exterminate Jews” in the Arab Press section of INN’s website.

Mudeiras is a Moslem cleric affiliated with Hamas.

Foreign Ministry official Gideon Meir stated that any contact with Hamas by a foreign government, on any level, will only serve to strengthen the terror organization and facilitate efforts towards continuing attacks against Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/print.php3?what=news&id=82560



Comment #59: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 7:57pm ET...

Back on topic for a minute:

If a pit bull ate your cat, would you hate that particular pit bull? Or all pit bulls? Or would you hate all dogs? How about all 4 legged animals?

To put blame on an entire religion for the actions of 19 people is ludicrous. There are MILLIONS of Muslims in the world who haven't eaten your damn cat, or anybody's else's cat. They haven't hi-jacked planes, or driven a car full of explosives into a building. And they don't have any plans to do any such thing.

Your hatred is flaming their hatred is flaming your hatred is flaming their hatred is flaming your hatred.

Jesus would be so proud.



Comment #60: wwrwtw said on 5/24/05 @ 7:57pm ET...

Confessions of a Former Islamist
By Ahmed Awny Shalakamy
FreeWorldNow.com May 24, 2005

I grew up in Giza, Egypt. My father was a building contractor and was involved in Islamic activities. He was the chairman of one of the local Islamic associations and was responsible for making the call for prayer. He also gave Islamic lessons and at times spoke at the mosque on Friday.

My father hated Christians. He taught me that they are infidels who contradict themselves by saying that Jesus Christ is God while their distorted book has verses that prove he is a prophet. It was all part of the rhetoric we got used to hearing from booming mosque loudspeakers, and from the playing of radio and audio cassettes in the streets. In such an atmosphere, a Muslim child in Egypt is breast-fed hatred along with his mother’s milk.

My father’s association was active in many fields. It ran a dormitory for girls, a workshop, a clinic, a nursery, a madrassah to study Quran and a section for preaching Islam. The main interest of his association was to proselytize Islam by any means.

During the rule of the late president Anwar El Sadat, the Grand Imam of El Azhar Mohamed Abdel Halim Mahmoud was involved in plotting together with Sadat’s vice president Mr. Hussein el Shafei. Sheikh Keshk was also involved in this planning together with Mohamed Osman Ismail, Assiut’s previous governor, and Mohamed Abdel Mohsen Saleh. Both Ismail and Saleh were the founding fathers of the various Islamic proselytizing associations that sprouted up, and of which my father was involved.

The goal of these groups was to convert Egypt into an Islamic state over a period of 50 years. Members of the royal Saudi family, who were related to the Wahabi movement and oil princes from the Gulf, financed this plan. Money was spent lavishly to seduce Christian women and girls any way possible. The cost in the seventies and early eighties was about five thousand Egyptian pounds for the entrapment of each girl. The money was split so that the Muslim man who lured the Christian woman into conversion received half and the members of the police and collaborating associations would receive the other half.

The work of the proselytizing associations in Egypt continues to take place and the payments for deceptive conversions are now higher. Today the average payment for an ordinary girl is ten thousand Egyptian pounds and payments can be as high as two hundred thousand Egyptian pounds if the girl is from a well-known Christian family, or is the daughter of a university professor, a deputy minister, or related to someone from the clergy.

Like my father, I too was involved with a proselytizing association. After we succeeded in converting a Christian woman, we would antagonize the Christians by parading the converted girl through the streets. We played loud music and waved flags while shouting “Allahu Akbar” to declare the victory of Islam. We would also chant slogans to shame the Christians. No Christian would stand in the way of these parades, which were safeguarded by the police.

This was a normal practice until 1985 when such parades were banned. Nevertheless, we continued in our campaign to convert Christian women anyway. We were focused on converting Christian girls and women because we believed this was a greater form of humiliation for Christians. In the East, a man’s honor is in his daughter, sister or wife and so disgracing any of them is the ultimate humiliation for him.

We used all kinds of tricks to get Christian women. We primarily sought to appeal to their emotions and impulses. We would also get these women involved in moral scandals and used that to coerce them to do whatever we wanted. This is what I did, while I was involved with a proselytizing association. Besides receiving payment for this work, I was convinced I received an additional reward because each time I caused a Christian woman to convert to Islam I would be awarded with an acre of land in heaven.

The following accounts are of the women that I lured into Islam through deceptive methods.



*

N.M.A.

NMA was originally from Cairo and went to college in the city where my family lived. I was in my first year of college at the time, and this was my first case of proselytizing.

She was very pretty. She had a few Muslim girl friends who told me that she was an easy catch. They arranged for me to meet her and I practiced pretending that I was madly in love, staring at her with desire and faking a quivering voice.

When NMA and I first started talking, I asked her some questions about the Christian faith. I realized I had to change my tactics if I was going to trap her. I started to convince her that I loved her and I worked on her until she fell for me. Her girl friends were aware of what was happening and helped me by talking to her about my love for her. I told her that we could marry and keep our different faiths, as Islam allows Muslims to marry the people of the book because they believe in God. I had my way with her and she became pregnant.

I secretly went to church with her a few times and I even bought Christian books, icons and the fellowship bread to convince her that I was an admirer of Christianity. I told her that I would have gladly converted to Christianity, but could not do it because I would be killed. I then told her that I loved her and could not live without her and if she converted to Islam, she would not be killed, as she was carrying our baby--the fruit of our love.

She was scared and did not know what to do. At that time, I asked her not to sever her relation with the church, to act as she normally would and as a camouflage go to church on Thursday for confession, on Friday for communion and again on Sunday for Mass. She followed my instructions and one day, as per my instructions, she arrived with her suitcase and gold jewelry, and we spent the night at my home in Gameat El Dewal El Arabia Street. On Saturday morning, she had an appointment with the person in charge at El Azhar. I arranged for her escape to the city where she attended college and where I lived until she finished her studies. I then had her name changed to Fatima El Zahra Mohamed Ali El Mahdi.

The efforts of her family and of other Christians to take her back were in vain. I made sure she was the one who adamantly refused to go back after my colleagues and I brainwashed her. My efforts were successful as she became completely convinced that she was now worshipping the true God of Islam.

After five weeks of achieving this victory for Islam and receiving my financial reward, I decided that I did not want to keep this faithless whore as my wife. She was cheap to me and was merely an object for sensual pleasure. How could I have a son with her who has in him the blood of those Christian infidels? I reasoned. I ordered her to have an abortion and I used my legitimate right to beat her. I also obliged her to work for her food. I told her she had to serve her Muslim masters who put a roof over her head and she had to be grateful that I married her and saved her from her shame.

I started to think about repeating the same game again with other women, so that I could serve my life, my religion and my after-life. I believed by doing this I would serve my religion by making the infidels embrace Islam; I would serve my life by getting financial rewards; and I would serve my after life by having many acres written in my name in heaven. I would also have a house cleaner for free. She would work for her food and when I wanted to use her for pleasure, she would be my odalisque.

I enjoyed hurting, beating and humiliating Fatima (NMA). I was positive she did not truly convert to Islam and that she has only surrendering to her female instincts. All this made me more inclined to take revenge on her. Fatima stayed with me for three years, seven months and twelve days until one Sunday in 1998 when I converted to Christianity. I was an atheist and avoided everyone, before becoming a Christian. But as I continued my research, I believe Jesus Christ showed himself to me.

I told my wife about my change of faith. She did not believe me at first. During those three years seven months and twelve days that Fatima stayed with me, I made eight girls convert to Islam. After I became a Christian, I sought to restore each of the nine women who converted because of me as well as those whom my father had converted. I am now praying for the rest of them and I keep getting good news about the coming back of one girl after the other.



D.B.A

When I met DBA, she was studying in a college located one and a half hours from her home. She came from a wealthy family. Her father and mother were physicians and her brothers were physicians in the Egyptian armed forces. Though she was a churchgoer, she was not religious. DBA was outgoing in her friendships with both Muslims and Christians. Yet despite her congeniality, we did not find it easy to get to her and had to resort to foul play. As Muslim men, we believed we were in a perpetual war with the “filthy infidels,” and therefore it was OK to trick them.

One day I received a visit from a young Muslim man who told me he wanted to marry DBA and asked me to help him convince her to convert to Islam. After much planning, I found out that this girl’s best friend was a religious Muslim. But she still considered the Christian girl her sister and I was disturbed by this. So I paid a visit to the Muslim girl and talked to her about the corrupt beliefs of Christianity and reminded her of what Allah says in the Quran (Jews and Christians won’t accept you until you follow their religion) and also (Ye believers do not take Jews and Christians as friends and those who befriend them are from them, as Allah does not show the right path to the unjust). I told her that jihad against them is the duty of every Muslim and she should contribute to the victory of Islam. The Muslim girl was convinced that I was right and asked what was required of her. I told her not to show hatred toward her Christian friend, but to treat her as usual and even try to strengthen their friendship and follow all of my instructions.

I then went to a Muslim pharmacist who is a member of our association and asked him for a drug to induce hallucinations. I told him why I needed the drug. He told me he wanted to contribute to the victory of Islam and therefore he agreed to provide it. I then gave the drug to the Muslim girl and told her to dissolve two tablets in a glass of milk and give it to DBA to drink, and then call us as soon as she noticed any changes in the girl.

The Muslim girl called us as soon as DBA started to hallucinate and lose control in her apartment. When my friend and I arrived, we had a camera and a video recorder. We started joking with DBA and she was responding, not realizing what we were doing until my friend managed to strip her of her clothes and took her to the bedroom.

I recorded everything on video and took pictures for about three hours. When DBA came around, she realized what had happened and started screaming and crying. She insulted us, Islam and the prophet of Islam, and tried to tear up the Quran, which was with her girlfriend. I showed her the video tape and the photos and threatened to make copies and distribute them to her family, as well as to other Christian families. I reminded her that she would be humiliated by the scandal. She cried and fell to the ground kissing our shoes pleading with us not to do this, but we insisted that she had to do whatever we told her to do, as she knew her brothers and relatives might even kill her if they were to see that video.

She gave in. Her tears and desperation made me ecstatic. Over the next few weeks, she accompanied us to the association where she was brainwashed by the sheikhs. She could not argue with anything they said. She was miserable and never stopped crying.

We taught her what to say before it was time for her to go the police department. She followed our instructions when she was interviewed by the police. And when a police officer asked her why she wanted to convert to Islam she said that the Prophet Mohamed came to her in a dream and greeted her with the Islamic greeting calling her Aisha. Jesus was also in the dream, greeted her with the Islamic greeting and denounced all Christians saying there is no God but Allah. She said that Jesus told her that he is Allah’s slave and prophet and Mohamed is Allah’s prophet. Then, she said, Jesus kissed Mohamed’s head and asked her to repeat after him Allah’s words from the Quran (those who believe in any other religion but Islam, Allah will not accept it from them in the end, and they will be losers).

She not only said this in front of the police officers, but also to her family members and the priests who came to visit her. Her reactions during these visits, which were called counseling sessions, were staged by us and agreed on by the police before the meeting. It was all a fraud and though she was visited by different priests, she could only tell them what we had coached her to say.

After all the legal procedures were completed, we got her new ID and new Islamic name: Aisha Abdalla Elmahdy. We had achieved our plan and the Muslim man, Yasser, a Mujahid, got the girl he desired along with his financial reward, which was quite hefty because she was from a prominent Christian family. I received 25% of his share, plus my share of the amount I paid to the collaborating persons involved.

Aisha’s family was dishonored and humiliated as expected. As a result, her mother sold her pharmacy and her father sold his clinic. They moved to a place where they could disappear away in the crowd in order to flee the scandal.

So Aisha married Yasser and lived as an outcast, because she was despised by her in-laws. She was married for two months when Yasser said he had enough of her and did not want to keep her anymore. He divorced her and threw her out into the street.

Since she was our sister in Islam and cannot be homeless, I took her to the association where she lived and worked as a maid, cleaning the clinic for her food and board. She stayed there for three months until she was legally allowed to re-marry. The groom to be was a Muslim who knew her story. He was a coolie and was already married with six children. During the day, he labored in the maintenance workshops of the governorate administration. Aisha did not want to marry him and begged us not to allow her to go through with it. We ignored her, and she was forced to marry a man she did not like.

She lived in misery. She worked as a maid to clean homes and sold vegetables in order to feed her husband and his children. It was impossible to imagine that she was once a girl from a wealthy family of physicians and a college student. Her life was ruined. Her second husband divorced her after five months. Since she had been married twice she did not re-marry and because many had found out about the video tapes and photos taken of her when she was drugged, she was considered unclean. She became homeless and had to spend the night in emergency camps where she lived in sub-human conditions. As she hit bottom she cried: God have mercy on me. God showed mercy and answered her prayer.

During the time she was homeless, I became a Christian was looking for the girls I tricked into converting to Islam. I found out what had become of her and went to visit her with my wife who had returned to the church. My wife and I offered to take care of her in our home. We sought to inform her parents about her situation, so I sent a relative of my wife together with a priest who talked to them. They all cried at the news and expressed their desire to see her. The family reunion was arranged in one of the churches in Cairo. It was an impressive reunion. Though I expected the parents to chastise her, they didn’t and were happy to see her.

As her family hugged and kissed her, I was so touched by the love I saw that I wondered why we were hurting Christians the way we did. I have always despised the smiles they had on their faces when we criticized, hurt or humiliated them. I used to tell myself that they were smiles of malice because they were a minority and could not stand up to us Muslims. Now I know the reason for their smiles. It is their love, forgiveness and tolerance toward their enemies. It is the Christian characteristic of making peace.

After DBA met her family, she went back home with them and they welcomed her with love and kindness as the scripture says in the story about the prodigal son. Her mother bought her beautiful clothes and her father bought her jewelry. They celebrated her coming home and repeated the words of the Bible (Our daughter was dead and now is alive and was lost and is now found).

A request was submitted to the Clerical Council to endorse her return to Christianity, which was approved. A Christian lawyer volunteered to petition the court to give her back her Christian name and identity card. The court ruled in her favor. She now lives in France where she serves in the Coptic Church with her husband and daughter.



N.M.M.

NMM attended high school and lived in a village. She was from a middle class family and was more attached to her father than her mother. She used to go to church to pray and serve. She attended religious conferences and bought records of sermons. She also enjoyed watching religious movies about the saints and martyrs. Her favorite saint was St. George.

NMM fell in love with a Christian man who worked in tourist resorts. He was a hard-working self-made person who helped his impoverished family by contributing to the marriage of his sisters and educating his brothers. He was active as a deacon in his church. He was able to purchase a small house and lived in a village where the Christian ratio is about quarter of the population. The Christians in his village owned most of the agricultural land.

NMM’s mother was not happy about her daughter’s love for this young man and did everything possible to deter her from seeing him. Her mother would often beat and humiliate her in front of her girlfriends. She even tried to marry her daughter off to her nephew, but the girl refused and asked her father to intervene, which the mother did not like. The uncles came, beat her up in the street with leather belts, and slapped her on the face while she stood in shock. When she broke out of her shock, she ran screaming for help. The first house she entered was the house of one of her Muslim girlfriends who said:

What do they want from you and why are they beating you up like this?

You do not deserve to be beaten up like this.

You are too honorable to be treated like this.

Why should you put up with such humiliation?

Others would love and respect you.

The words of her Muslim girlfriend were soothing to her. The girl had a brother named Hassan Abu Zeid, who worked as a mason laborer. Hassan came to see me and told me the story. I realized that she was an easy catch and told Hassan that if he wanted victory for Islam and loved his prophet he should propose to this girl. He agreed and I went with him to talk to her about how Islam is merciful and about the problems with Christianity. I filled her head with ideas of avenging herself and fleeing her humiliation by marrying someone who would appreciate and respect her. I told her that I would give them a fully furnished flat and we will have a job ready for her as soon as she received her diploma. I put a lot of emphasis on the idea of revenge against her mother and uncles and told her that her conversion to Islam would drag their honor and pride in the mud.

With the help of the Muslim girlfriend, I planned her escape. The Muslim girl went to the girl’s mother and told her that NMM was going to spend the night at her place in order to calm down. The mother agreed and the next morning NMM’s family stopped by the Muslim girl’s apartment to pick her up, as they were going to a monastery to baptize one of her cousins. But NMM refused to go using the pretext that she was still angry. We watched the Christian family drive away. Then NMM went home. She packed her clothes, got in a cab with the Muslim young man and went to the police station where she met with the chief detective. She asked him to finalize the procedures for proclaiming her conversion to Islam. He could not do it because she was a minor and told her that she had to wait until she was 18. He also said that if she could not wait, she could falsify her birth certificate or she could go to Al-Azhar to sort out her problem. I advised the Muslim young man to inquire about this with the State Security office. There he was told the same thing about her age.

I then called Sheikh Abu El-Yazeed in Tanta, told him the situation, and asked for his help in hiding the girl. Sheikh El-Yazeed agreed immediately. We took the girl to his house where she stayed for three weeks while we gave her certain drugs that made her submissive to the brain washing she received from a group of sheikhs. At that time, her peaceful village was boiling with tension and promises of sectarian violence, as threats were made by the chief detective to the Christians in her village regarding her condition. He told the Christians that she was converting to Islam and if they complained about it, they would be thrown in jail.

This caused more unrest among the Christians. Sectarian clashes began when one of them attacked the house of the Muslim family of the young man who eloped with the girl. The village was surrounded by Central Security forces and remained under siege for over 45 days. This girl would have had no hope of returning had it not been for the courage of those Christians. We had to move her from Sheikh Abu El Yazeed’s house to Sheikh Mohamed’s where she stayed for 10 days. We carried on with the planned dosage of drugs and sessions with the sheikhs.

We had to change NMM’s residence once again to the apartment of a Muslim family in the Mohandessin area in Giza Square, Cairo. With the help of Sheikh Nagui Yadem in Beheira, we managed to forge a birth certificate for the girl, which said that she was 22 years old. Sheik Yadem was known for providing such services to our association and all other associations, which worked in the same area of conversion.

We then went to Al-Azhar, expedited the required procedures for changing her religion to Islam, and then got her an Islamic name. We heard that the sectarian situation in the village was intensifying, as the Christians started distributing printouts against Islam and were attacking young Muslim men. I went with some of my friends clandestinely to the Friday prayer in NMM’s village. When the prayers finished, however, we were recognized and attacked by some of the Christian men. I was injured and still have a scar from the wound I received on my forehead.

A leading figure in one of the opposition parties and a member of parliament spoke on behalf of the Christian family. As a result, the matter was raised to the Interior Minister who ordered an investigation. While waiting for the outcome of this investigation, we transferred the girl to Sheikh Yasser’s house in Samalout and then moved her to Eng. Ibrahim Abdel Aziz’s, who was a member of one of the legitimate associations and worked as an engineer at the public company for potable water. Aziz was also a friend of Sheikh Yousry and Sheikh Khaled.

We were under a lot of pressure to solve this in favor of Islam, especially since the intervention of a human rights organization and the hunger strike that was declared by the girl’s sister.

During all of this we continued to give NMM daily doses of drugs and made her listen to the preaching of sheikhs and Muslim preachers for many hours each day.

The instructions from security forces were clear: the girl would be asked about the extent of her conviction for Islam. If her reply affirmed her belief in Islam, she would proceed to the counseling sessions with the church. Her conversion to Islam would not be endorsed until, however, she was 18 years of age according to her original birth certificate and not the bogus certificate issued upon request. If her reply was negative and she declared that she did not believe in Islam, she should be returned to her family and legal action should be taken against the involved member of the police. The person indicted for this incident was Lieutenant Ismail Adham Elberkawi, the precinct’s chief detective. He was penalized by being transferred to a remote precinct where he was removed from detective work.

We started to prepare for the girl to meet the representative of the Ministry of Home Affairs. Though she told us that she would say wherever we wanted her to, she was deceiving us. When the police car arrived and drove her to the Security Division Headquarters to meet her father and the priest of her church, she was wearing an extensive hajib and appeared fully indoctrinated. But as soon as she saw her father, she burst into tears and fell to the ground to kiss his feet. She ask him to take her to her sister – we had told her that her sister went on a hunger strike and that she had to sign the papers admitting her conversion to Islam out of conviction so that her sister would end her strike and not die. Though frightened of us, NMM was very worried about her sister. She went to meet the representative of the Ministry of Home affairs and when he asked about her conversion, he was shocked by the insults she started hurling at Islam and Muslims and her demands that we should all be punished. He decided to give her back to her family and annul the certificate issued by Al-Azhar stating her conversion, after presenting the case to the D.A.’s office. This was a painful blow and we felt that Muslims were shamed because of this girl and all the Christians who rebelled.

Soon after she returned to her family, they moved to Kalioub where the father worked. I tried to deceive her again and pretended that I fell in love with her and that I was ready to convert to Christianity just for her, but it was in vain, as the Christian young man she loved in the first place was ready to kill me to protect her. She is now a mother of three and works for a Christian lawyer.



B.G.M.

BGM was lived in the countryside and attended college. She suffered from the recurrent problem of ruthless parents. She was very delicate, small, frail and very naïve. She used to commute daily to and from her college in a microbus and usually sat at the front seat next the driver. I saw her and was mesmerized by her delicate, baby-like features. I inquired about her with the driver whose name was Ali Al Sawy and he informed me that she was a college student and always rode with him to college. Ali was a secular Muslim, but I managed to turn him into a religious one. I talked to him about our jihad against Christians convinced him to take part in this jihad against infidels. I used a plan, which was very common then and is still widely used. I bought some Christian booklets and pictures and told Ali to pretend that he was a Christian. Every time the girl rode with him, he would give her a booklet or a picture as she got off his bus.

This helped the girl to become acquainted with Ali, who told her that his name was Simon. They became friends. Ali waited for her daily and drove her back to the village. He would take her wherever she wanted to go. Then they started going out together for walks in the public park. Ali played Christian audio tapes when BGM was alone with him in the car. As their friendship grew, BGM started to pour out her heart to him about the harshness of her father.

Ali and BGM continued to meet like this for seven months, until she was ready for the next step. Then he asked her to run away to one of the monasteries where they could then get married and she said yes. I asked him to drive her home at a time when nobody was there so that she could pack all her things – she was so naïve that she even took her Bible with her – and we went to the house of a Muslim family where she received our surprise. We told her that it was impossible for her to go back home because by now her family would have discovered that she eloped and if her father saw her he would kill her. We told her that there was no way out of this and that she had to wear a hijab and take on the Muslim name Zeinab.

She cried and begged us not to force her to do this, but we did not listen to her pleas and told her if she wished to go back home she could, but we would not be responsible if her father killed her.

She was frightened. She cried, screamed, and appeared to be in shock. It was not a problem for us, as the drugs we used on girls such situations, would always pacify them.

BGM said she did not want to go back home, as she was scared she would be killed. We kept her in an apartment for about a month. At that time, she sat with Sheikh Ibrahim, Mrs. Hana and Mrs. Lamia. For three hours a day, they lectured her on Islam and told her negative things about Christianity.

When it came time to take her to the Security Division Headquarters, she was mentally prepared to deny her Christian faith and refuse seeing her father. She met with a priest who talked to her for one and a half hours, but all she would say was “May God lead you to the right path as he did me.” She kept repeating this until the priest told her that he was willing to listen to her if she could convince him about Islam. But she would not say anything more.

BGM married Ali El Sawy and lived with him in misery as he was a sadistic pervert who beat her used her private parts to smother his cigarettes. She was depressed and in tears, which provoked him to torture her more. He had already received his financial reward for her conversion, and I got my share.

After 53 days of marriage, he divorced her. She lost her career, her dignity and her family. She went to work Muslim dormitory for girls where she cleaned and cooked in exchange for a place to live. She was there for four months, when she got married and divorced again. She had been homeless for over a year. She eventually returned to Christianity is now married and lives in Sydney.



Mrs. Sh. Sh. H

Though Mrs. Sh. Sh. H was a Christian, she knew little about Christianity other than the golden cross she wore around her neck. She says that while in college, she was wild and caused many problems for her family. Then she met a devout Christian man who wanted to marry her, against the advice of the clergy and against the will of his family. After their marriage, she was faithful to him for a short time. Though they had two beautiful boys, she was unhappy with her husband.

Mrs. Sh. Sh. H worked at an intermediate school where she met Khalid Abdel Rahman Mekawy. She started to fool around with Khalid. Because she was poor, she used to take her husband’s money and give it to him. The school was far from where she lived, which made it easier for her to have this relationship.

Khalid talked to me about their affair and I told him that I could garner him a reward of LE 7000 (Egyptian Pounds) or possibly as much as LE 10000 if he was able to make her convert to Islam. I arranged for their sexual encounter in an apartment and then tipped off the vice police who came to arrest them.

While in the vice police headquarters, Mrs. Sh. Sh. H was faced with two choices, either write a formal report and represent her case to the D.A. or, if she wanted to avoid the scandal, she could be released from the precinct temporarily in order to pack her clothes and then return to the precinct to be escorted by Mohamed Abdel Zaher, a lawyer, to Al-Azhar in order to finish the procedures for her conversion. She was also told to make a case against her Christian husband requesting full custody of her children, since she was now a follower of Islam. (According to Egyptian law, if one of the parents converts to Islam that parent will have full custody of the children who are under 18.) Knowing this, her husband took the children and disappeared until a priest arranged for him to leave the country.

Mrs. Sh. Sh. H did not change her name after converting to Islam. Khalid took his reward of LE 10000 and gave it to his impoverish family. He lived with her and relied on donations from Muslim families that wanted to reward him for of his victory for Islam. Yet despite these rewards, he was still poor and she lived with him in difficult conditions for two years. Her health deteriorated because of malnutrition. She also became melancholy because she was unable to see her children. She attempted suicide on more than one occasion.

After I was baptized, her father got in touch with Khalid through me and paid him LE 100000 to divorce her. When her father saw her, he could not recognize her because she looked so terrible. All the legal procedures were made with the Clerical Council for her to be reinstated as a Christian. A volunteer Christian lawyer helped her to win her case.

Though her husband did not take her back, he allows her to see her children regularly and she now lives with her mother and brother in one of the coastline cities.



Mrs. H.

Mrs. H. was married and had a son, who was an accountant, and two daughters in college, one in medicine and the other in dentistry.

Mrs. H. had a colleague at work who sent her an errand boy to help her with shopping and cleaning. This errand boy was very bold and used to go to her house even when she was alone. The errand boy’s name was Hussein Zaki Abdel Baki. I heard about this from her Muslim colleague Mahmoud Farahat Abdel Nasser. I asked her colleague to let me talk to Hussein. I convinced him to work for the jihad against infidels and told him that Mrs. H. sounded like an easy catch and that he needed to take her as an odalisque for his pleasure in her home and on her marital bed. Though he was 21 years her junior, he followed the plan and they had sexual relations for the next few months.

Hussein would tell my friends and me about what happened between them. This woman got used to these encounters, which were taking place every other day, and preferred Hussein to her husband. Then Hussein decided to take the next move and told her:

You are very nice.

I cannot live without you.

Younger girls are not as good as you are.

Your husband does not know your true value and you live with him in deprivation.

You should seek divorce from this husband who deprives you of your legitimate rights.

Since there is no divorce in your religion, there is only one way out so that we can live and enjoy our love.

Mrs. H. agreed with him and the next morning when she came to work, I was waiting for her there with Sheikh Khaled who was a member of one of the Muslim associations. We drove her to the Security Division headquarters where we met with the man in charge. Although he disapproved of what was happening and tried to deter her, she was mentally prepared to stand up to anyone. Her family came to see her and pleaded with her. First, her son, then her two daughters and her husband (who fell to his knees in front of her) tried to convince her to come back to them, but she was adamant and called them all atheists and infidels.

All the procedures and her new ID were completed within 24 hours. She was now ready, willing and able to marry Hussein. She went and looked for him, but by then he had already cashed the LE 15000 reward and had proposed to a young Muslim girl. When she finally found him and asked him to marry her, he spat at her, called her a whore and told her she should work as a prostitute. He said that as a good Muslim he would have nothing to do with her. She was shocked and could not believe that she had sacrificed her life, husband, children and brothers for this man.

She tried to get in touch with her family members, but her husband had already fled the scandal with their children to live in another place, and her brothers refused to see her. She went to stay in one of the legitimate associations and wait for anyone who would marry her.

Within less than two months she was walking absent-mindedly on the Cairo-Aswan road, passers-by were shouting at her to be careful on this highway when she was hit by a police car and was badly injured with multiple fractures. She was admitted to a public hospital. No one from her family wanted to visit her. I was the only person who went to see her and left a down payment for her operation, which was paid by a nearby mosque imam. She was hospitalized and had a number of surgeries. She was left permanently disabled in one foot and needed crutches to walk.

She was in quite a dilemma. Where could she go? How would she survive and who will support her? She had already lost her husband, family and her job. Some Muslim benefactors took her to live in a tiny flat in the poor area of Boolak in Cairo and applied for social research to be conducted on her situation, so that the Ministry of Social Services would pay her a meager LE 25 per month. She continued to live in poverty for two years. By that time, I had become a Christian and felt that mine should be a retroactive repentance. So I reached out to her and her family. It was a tough task, as family had already considered her dead and one of them vowed to kill her if he ever set eyes on her.

A bishop and a monk volunteered to help her family meet and talk with her. I arranged for her to travel to Kena governorate where her husband and children had settled after they fled the scandal and pretended she was dead.

The meeting took place in the house of a priest. One of her brothers spat on her face and removed his shoe to beat her. But the priest intervened. I confessed in front of everybody that this all happened because of me, as I was the one who instigated Hussein the errand boy to trick her and if anybody wanted revenge it should be against me, as I was the one who deserved to be killed, not Mrs. H. Her daughters started to kiss her and everybody was moved and we all cried. The priest who was well versed in Islamic studies tried to discuss the notions that she had previously claimed were the reason she converted to Islam, but she admitted that what prompted her to convert was not that she thought there was something wrong with Christianity but because she was attracted to Hussein.

After we could see that her conversion back to Christianity was authentic, we started the legal procedures. It was an arduous task, which proved difficult and complicated. Only the grace of God and his miraculous intervention made it possible for that lady to go back to her son and two daughters.



M.A.T.

This case was a harsh blow, as this girl was from a very wealthy family and her father was well known to all of the Christians in his city and in the governorate. Her mother was a deputy minister and was nominated for a higher position in Cairo as a sector head. Both parents came from aristocratic families.

What happened to MAT is happening to many others.

MAT was a college student when I met her. She used to go to church, memorize verses from the Bible and observe all of the fasts. She had many Christian and Muslim friends.

I made her acquaintance through one of her Muslim friends who knew my intentions and wanted to help in the jihad. I had to pretend that I was fond of her and never told her that I was married. I also pretended to be a secular Muslim who accepted all others regardless of their religion. I even pretended to have socialist inclinations. I tried to trick her sometimes with skeptic questions about Christianity. She responded with answers that I have never heard from any other girl and I would then pretend to be convinced by those answers. I never told her that I was married to an ex-Christian who I converted to Islam. I made her believe that I was single and looking for love. We started to go out together with her Muslim friend, Amal Rmadan Abdel Aleem, who played a major role in introducing us.

Our platonic relationship lasted for eleven months and I kept it this way because she was a religious girl and I knew she would not succumb easily to sex. So I put more of an emphasis on trapping her emotions. We used to sit down together and cry because we could not get married. She tried to talk to me about her disagreement with Islamic beliefs and I pretended to agree with her. In time, she became so attached to me that she could not let a day go by without going out with me.

Once we went to St. Simon Monastery in Mokattam. I put on a mask of reverence while I despised and loathed everything around me. I put some change in the alms box and I kissed the icons to convince her that I liked Christianity. It was on this trip that I told her that I was starting to believe in Christianity, but that my father and uncles were sheikhs and could cause a lot of trouble. I told her she must be patient and leave matters in the hands of God. A few weeks after our trip to the monastery, she talked to me again about my willingness to accept the Christian faith and I told her that I was convince about it, but my conversion could only be done abroad and for the time being we would have to stop seeing each other.

This came as a shock to her and she started crying. We had the following conversation:

What am I supposed to do? I love you and you love me.

You know I cannot live without you.

So what are we going to do?

I know how you feel but it’s difficult to achieve our goal now.

How long do we have to wait?

If I convert to Christianity, my parents will give us such hassles and we won’t have any resources.

We can sell my jewelry.

How long will it last and anyway? I cannot take money from you.

We can work and provide for ourselves.

I have an idea and wonder if you will agree.

What is it?

I will convert to Christianity, but only after we settle abroad. But I do not know when this will happen.

You mean we have to wait for years? That is not fair.

The only way out is if you sacrifice temporarily so that we can be together, what joins us is the religion of love.

What are you saying?

You heard me and if you don’t agree we should not see each other again.

Please try to find another way.

I have been thinking for quite some time and that is the only way.

What am I supposed to say to my parents and what would they think of me and what will everybody think of me? My friends, the church and the priest?

You make the choice.

Darling please find another way.

Believe me there is no other way and you know that I care about you and your reputation.

What am I supposed to tell them at home and how will I leave?

That’s easy; you just pack a small suitcase and tell them that you are going to spend a few days at the nuns’ monastery in old Cairo. We can live together in Cairo. When things get better, I will be baptized and we can have a church wedding. You have to make up your mind now, it’s either me or your parents, but if you choose them, you will never see me again.

Give me some time to think it over.

I will wait for you the day after tomorrow at 7:00 in the morning at the train station, if you don’t show up with your suitcase you can forget me forever.

She cried and I pretended to cry as well, but she was at the station on time and we traveled together to Cairo. We went to my place and when she opened her suitcase, I was dismayed to see that she had a Bible. I thought that angels wouldn’t come into this house while this filth was there. She said that she had sacrificed her Jesus, family and church for my sake, but will pray day and night so that God may change the circumstances so that I could be baptized. I was angry but laughed at her naïveté.

We had breakfast and then went for a walk. We had to embark on the next stage of preparing her to confront her parents and the clergymen. She had a condensed course with sheikhs and Islamic preachers and we used the drugs on her that were supplied by my friend, the pharmacist, in order to ensure her submissiveness. These daily sessions with drugs continued for a whole month. In the meantime, her parents had checked with the monastery and when they did not find her, they realized that she was missing. They reported her absence to the police who were collaborating with us and kept stalling her parents in order to buy us time so that we could prepare her mentally to reject the counseling of the clergymen. But her parents were very persistent and did not stop complaining until the police had to inform them that she was staying at one of the legitimate associations and that she had applied to convert to Islam. It was a very harsh revelation for her parents, her friends and the priests who knew her family and knew how religious she was.

She was a member of the church choir, she used to go to church every day and memorize the church prayers, and as far as they knew, she had left home to go on a spiritual retreat in the monastery in Cairo. They were in shock and disbelief. They had so many questions but received no answers. The police finally agreed to let them meet with her in the Security Division Headquarters and in the presence of policemen who collaborated with us and attended the meeting to scare the girl and prevent her from relenting under the pressure of seeing her parents in distress. It was a three-hour meeting. She said nothing but: “There is no God but Allah, it is over, please leave me be, don’t be upset with me.” She was crying all the time and the two priests who were present with her parents tried to ask her about her Islamic beliefs. When she tried to say something, our man who was there banged his knuckles on the desk, which terrified her, so she kept quiet.

The meeting was disastrous for the family, but helped us to expedite the remaining procedures. In no time, MAT received her new identity with her new Muslim name, Shaima. I finished my mission and I had to disappear because there was no way I would marry her. I received my reward of LE 40000 which was the highest amount I received during my career of unscrupulous activities.

She was desperate and looked for me everywhere. When we finally met, she asked when we were going to be married and said:

I did everything you wanted me to do. So, what am I required to do now?

Marry me. I did all this for our love.

You did not love your religion so you are incapable of loving a man.

Yes, I loved you and you loved me.

Yes, I loved you, but I cannot marry you nor trust you because you have no loyalty.

I am not loyal? I left everything behind for your sake.

And you would be willing to leave me for another man besides you come from a squalid race.

So why did you make all these promises and made me change my religion?

I did you a favor, I ushered you into the right religion but I will not marry you, I am already married and for your information my wife was like you and I am the one who made her convert to Islam so you are not the first nor the last infidel that I win for Islam.

I cannot believe what I am hearing.

Now you have to work as a nanny at the nursery of the legitimate association until we find you someone who would marry you and can control you.

You cannot be the same person I fell in love with.

Don’t talk about love, and now hit the road

Shaima was so desperate and hopeless that she collapsed and lost consciousness. She suffered terrible depression, which was manifested in dreadful symptoms. She used to wake up in the middle of the night terrified and screaming and cried constantly. We found her a husband who managed to furnish a room for her in his apartment in Omarania. He was a street seller, so you can imagine how he treated her.

I enjoyed seeing her suffer in humiliation and when we met one day, she said: “May God take revenge on you” so I spat at her and said: “May what happened to you happen to all your folks”. She was married to that man for nine months and became pregnant, but had a miscarriage because of a harsh beating he gave her. When he divorced her, she became homeless until one of our brothers found her a job as a maid in a hospital in Ayat. She worked in cleaning and in the hospital kitchen and had to find herself any hidden corner to sleep in, as she had nowhere to go.

One day a Christian doctor empathized with her and took her to work in his clinic in Damietta. This was risky for him because she was a former Christian. She confessed to him that she had never believed in Islam and that she wanted to return to her father’s house even if she had to work as a maid and sleep on the floor there.

This was around the time I became a Christian and started looking for her. When I finally met that doctor, he led me to her. I apologized and cried in front of her asking for her forgiveness for all of the pain I caused her. She did not say a word but burst into tears, so I asked her to pray with my wife, the doctor and me. After we saw her smile, we left and I promised to visit her family and confess everything to them. I went to her parents and when I told them the whole story, they were eager to take her back. I found true love and real Christianity in those people who were so sad about what had become of their daughter, and yet they were willing to forgive. None of them showed any hostility to me for the evil I had committed. I deeply regretted my actions and cried when I saw all the love they showed me after all the pain I caused them and their daughter. Those people believed in a loving and forgiving God.

Her father embraced her and repeated what the father of the prodigal son had said in the Bible. She now leads a life of prayer in Cairo, with one of her brothers and his family.



A.S.O. and her cousin A.F.O.

ASO and AFO were from Suez and studied in one of the colleges at Cairo University. They had a reputation for being reckless and wild, and for having sex with many guys. I heard about them from Mohamed Mahmoud Alaa, one of their colleagues in college, who was also a member of one our legitimate association. Alaa told me the names of some of the guys ASO and AFO were involved with. Some were Christians but the others were Muslims who were not concerned with religion and drank alcohol and took drugs. I went to see two of those Muslim men with a friend of mine. We had a casual discussion with them about Islam and then we asked them to accompany us to the mosque to hear some verses from the Quran. They agreed and we attended a lecture about the rewards of those who claim victory for Islam. We met with the two guys again and attended more lectures. One of those lectures discussed the contents of one of Sheikh Shaarawy’s televised sessions where he criticized the Christian’s beliefs and their decadence and immorality. The two young men told me about their involvement with the two Christian girls and I told them:

You guys have a chance to make up for all your sins.

God is great and forgiving.

You have to claim victory for Allah and his true religion.

Christians and Jews will not be satisfied unless you follow their religions.

You are the future and strength of Islam.

Those Christians are cursed as they discredit our prophet.

They sully the Quran in their Churches.

If you can make these two girls convert to Islam you will be rewarded by acres of land in heaven and you will also be paid a large amount of money here on earth.

They both agreed and I filled them in on the plan, which required that they strengthen their relationship with the two girls. I gave them a sizeable cheque so that they could have fun with the girls and impress them by paying for all entertainment. Entertainment and fun at that stage was acceptable because war is a trick.

Shortly after the two men managed to trap the girls into civil marriage. We rented a furnished flat for them for this purpose, as these Christian girls were odalisques to be used by Muslims only for sensual pleasures. This went on for a year and a half until we lost patience, and told the Muslim young men that they had to talk to the girls about converting to Islam to maintain the continuation of marriage, love and sex. It was a nice surprise to find that these women had no objection and did not argue or discuss anything, as is usually the case in these circumstances. When asked about their Christian beliefs they replied that they knew nothing about Christianity. We did not need to hide them in a legitimate association or ask for the help of police or anybody else as we usually did.

We summoned two of the relatives of each girl and the priest of Suez together with a priest from Giza and when the girls saw their parents and the priests they started a demonstration and shouted: “There is no God but Allah, Christians are the enemies of Allah, Pope Shenouda is the enemy of Allah and we will sacrifice blood and soul for Islam”. It was a farce that even the Security Division man in charge tried to end, but one of the girls maliciously slurred Jesus Christ and Saint Mary. The relatives and the priests left and one of the girls changed her name to Khadiga and the other to Fatima. They both wore the hajib and married the Muslim boys who were paid LE 8000 each and I was also paid my reward.

What happened afterwards to the Muslim Khadiga and Fatima was humiliating and degrading. Their husbands considered them an investment commodity and got them to become prostitutes for tourists from the Gulf area. The husbands gave the money they earned in prostitution to their Muslim families and one of them married his sweetheart and rented her a flat. One day after the husbands drove them to their business with some Gulf tourists in a flat in Agouza, the vice police raided the building and everybody was arrested. The two girls were sent to Kanater prison where they were badly treated. While in prison, they made the acquaintance of a Christian prison warden. They told her their story and that they regretted leaving Christianity, betraying their families and wasting their lives. The warden had no children and considered them her daughters after they confided in her.

When the two women came out of prison, they found that their Muslim husbands had divorced them and they had nowhere to go. They wanted to go back to their Christian names but they could not because their identity cards now bore Muslim names. They went to work as maids at the house of a film actor in order to find a place to sleep and eat. They left her as soon as they found a place for Christian girls where they were accepted.

I had been looking for them for some time and by coincidence, it happened that one of the girls they were staying with was a relative of my wife, so we have to know their whereabouts. A priest found them a place to stay, I went with him to meet the priest of Suez, and we proceeded to see the families of the two girls. Their fathers and brothers beat me so hard that if it were not for the priest I would have been killed.

Afterwards one of the fathers was eager to see his daughter, but his brother adamantly refused, until he was convinced by one of the priests and a reunion was arranged at the house of the priest who gave shelter to the two girls. The meeting was in utter chaos, as there were those who were crying and embracing and those who were swearing, beating and asking for revenge until we were all led into a long prayer.

It was a very emotional day. When the families left, the girls remained at the priest’s house where everybody was praying and asking for God’s grace. After a lot of hassle and expense, we managed to get the girls new identity cards with new Christian names, as unfortunately we could not get them their original names. One of them is now married to her cousin and they live in Aswan, the second is married and lives in Brazil.

*

I serve now at the Lord’s vineyard and I believe that my name is in the book of life. I wish I could have stayed in Egypt but it was not possible because my father wanted me dead and an edict was issued permitting the slaughter of my wife’s family on the pretext that they must have used black magic to make me deviate from the right path and leave the religion of Allah to embrace the religion of the infidels.

I have mourned the years I spent away from the Lord and harassing his people. I rebuked him for not opening my eyes earlier in life. I found a similar story in Acts Chapter 19 and realized how great and merciful God is that he does not wish death for the sinner but wants him to return and live. Before, when I went to a church, I used to despise and mock those nutty Christians who repeated strange words in a strange language that they called the Coptic language, so many of them did not understand or appreciate it and preferred Arabic.

After my conversion, I was frequenting churches during Lent and I smelled a beautiful scent in the air, I loved it, loved all the tunes of Coptic hymns, and loved their profound theological meanings. I truly wanted to stay in Egypt, but my wife’s family was scared for her life and mine, so we decided to find and retrieve those that were lost because of me at any cost. It was an arduous task that cost me all my savings, but we managed to restore many girls and we are praying for the rest of them. When things became more dangerous, my wife’s father insisted that we leave the country. My visa was revoked few times, but my wife got a tourist visa to the USA and I stayed behind for four months. After she left it was easier for me to serve the Lord without having to worry about her safety. Those four months of serving the Lord clandestinely was the most blissful period of my life where I really felt the hand of the Lord working through me. My father – may God forgive him – had been involved in the same unscrupulous activities with devilish plans but we managed to bring back some girls he converted through deception, and for that we thank the Lord and we pray and ask you to pray for the rest.

I wrote down the experiences I went through not to entertain the reader or for someone to hate his friends, but for all to learn from our mistakes. I gave some examples of evil deceitful friends who act as if they were lambs while they are wolves waiting to snatch the prey, but there are also good people, honest and loyal. I am also writing to warn against guys who deceive girls by pretending to be a Christian and would even go to church because he believes that tricks are allowed in war. I am also writing this in the hope that parents would pay more attention to their children, look into their lives and mend their ways if they need and bring their families closer to church - the house of the Lord - in order to protect their offspring.

I am not writing this to incite you against some friends or provoke civil unrest. What I fear most is that some irrational girl might think she is embarking on an adventure and would be a heroine and I know quite a few who would do anything now to reverse what they have done, but all the odds are against them which makes it virtually impossible for them to come back. I am only writing my personal experiences.

In closing, I offer this memoir to the soul of my faithful friend Salah Mahmoud who gave his life for his Christian faith. Prior to becoming a Christian, Mahmoud was a member of Jamaa Islamia. When God lit his heart and opened his eyes, it marked my beginning of search and study. Through the blessings of his prayers, I became born again and was transformed. I offer this memoir to Mahmoud. May God rest his soul in heaven along with all of the Saints.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=18167



Comment #61: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 7:59pm ET...

I do not hate newname. You may make a bad choice, but you, apparently, do not seek to murder me, my family or others simply because they are not islamic. I do not hate Mr. Conyer. He has a position, and unfortunately he has chosen poorly. What else is new for a Politician. Happens every day. I do not want him dead... I simply want him to watch, learn and defend his family from those in islam who would force their twisted brand of pseudo-religion on all of us. I do not even hate athiests... They were not at the control of the planes that murdered some 3,000 innocents on September the 11th, 2001. I do not even hate the satanist that has posted here with some regularity since they have simply chosen a side and do not use it to seek our instant death, as islam does...

As far as a child born to anyone with a health problem, there are literally thousands of Americans who are seeking to adopt. They even go overseas to get a child... often a child with problems... why murder a voiceless innocent? Convenience is not all that some claim... abortion scars run deep. If you have never had one you are blessed.

I do not hate liberals.. I was one once, then I grew up. I even once .. long ago, belonged to the Sierra Club and to the A.C.L.U. I gag even thinking about my prior stupidity and logical vacuousness. As I said, I have repented, and yes even one who murders their own child in utero can repent and be forgiven too.

You should consider that so long as you do not seek to destroy our society, I have no ultimate problem with you... We all grow at different rates...

Good luck in your walk.

with compassion to you in your growth, newname.

Ed B



Comment #62: Kira said on 5/24/05 @ 8:02pm ET...

Word of the day (to all our favorite Hunkies):

Desultory \DES-uhl-tor-ee\, adjective:
1. Jumping or passing from one thing or subject to another without order or rational connection; disconnected; aimless.
2. By the way; as a digression; not connected with the subject.
3. Coming disconnectedly or occurring haphazardly; random.
4. Disappointing in performance or progress.



Comment #63: Kira said on 5/24/05 @ 8:05pm ET...

Well, so there's no confusion -- to all our favorite Hunks, Hanks, tHanks, tHunks, and etc.



Comment #64: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 8:08pm ET...

Kiras is a confused individual. Sad really. :-(



Comment #65: Frank K said on 5/24/05 @ 8:16pm ET...

My head hangs low to think that you now support a religion that has taken more than ten million innocent lives since the year 1100.

Even today the count steadily rises.

You've sold your sole, and now you can wait for your next set of instructions from the Muslim community.



Comment #66: Dr. Alan H. Levinson said on 5/24/05 @ 8:18pm ET...

OH MY GOD!!

This is a must see. Got it from an entry on BradBlog.

Mr. Conyers. I suggest you see this in order to find out what has happened to our media!!

http://www.freespeech.org/fsitv/fscm2/contentviewer.php?content_id=1031

Alan



Comment #67: FFDN said on 5/24/05 @ 8:30pm ET...

I wonder if there were any House Resolutions to respect Nazism and Mein Kampf during WWII?



Comment #68: Sandra said on 5/24/05 @ 8:37pm ET...

Hi Dr. Alan. Glad to see you posting again. Thanks for the link.



Comment #69: Sobiesky said on 5/24/05 @ 8:40pm ET...

Newname, not sure how you came to conclusion that hating Islam equals hating muslims. It is not the same. Islam, the political ideology that is trying to pass for a religion, is as vile and twisted as Nazism, even worse.

I admit that I hate Nazism with passion, as well as Nazis. That does not imply that I hate Germans.

The same applies to Islam and Islamists (jihadis). Muslims, at least great number of them, are innocent bystanders that were born under Islam. They don't know much else. For the most part, they don't know Qu'ran, as it i written and conveyed in Arabic and a majority of muslims speak other languages. If they knew how despicable the Islamic creed described in Qu'ran and Hadiths is, and were able to escape from the indoctrination, they would leave Islam. Some already are.



Comment #70: Dr. Alan H. Levinson said on 5/24/05 @ 8:48pm ET...

Hi Sandra



Comment #71: Sandra said on 5/24/05 @ 8:52pm ET...

Thank you, Rep. Conyers, for once again standing up for the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html

First Amendment: an overview

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. See U.S. Const. amend. I. Freedom of expression consists of the rights to freedom of speech, press, assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and the implied rights of association and belief. The Supreme Court interprets the extent of the protection afforded to these rights. The First Amendment has been interpreted by the Court as applying to the entire federal government even though it is only expressly applicable to Congress. Furthermore, the Court has interpreted, the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as protecting the rights in the First Amendment from interference by state governments. See U.S. Const. amend. XIV.

Two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion. The establishment clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another. It enforces the "separation of church and state. Some governmental activity related to religion has been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court. For example, providing bus transportation for parochial school students and the enforcement of "blue laws" is not prohibited. The free exercise clause prohibits the government, in most instances, from interfering with a persons practice of their religion.

The most basic component of freedom of expression is the right of freedom of speech. The right to freedom of speech allows individuals to express themselves without interference or constraint by the government. The Supreme Court requires the government to provide substantial justification for the interference with the right of free speech where it attempts to regulate the content of the speech. A less stringent test is applied for content-neutral legislation. The Supreme Court has also recognized that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a breach of the peace or cause violence. The right to free speech includes other mediums of expression that communicates a message.

Despite popular misunderstanding the right to freedom of the press guaranteed by the first amendment is not very different from the right to freedom of speech. It allows an individual to express themselves through publication and dissemination. It is part of the constitutional protection of freedom of expression. It does not afford members of the media any special rights or privileges not afforded to citizens in general.

The right to assemble allows people to gather for peaceful and lawful purposes. Implicit within this right is the right to association and belief. The Supreme Court has expressly recognized that a right to freedom of association and belief is implicit in the First, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments. This implicit right is limited to the right to associate for First Amendment purposes. It does not include a right of social association. The government may prohibit people from knowingly associating in groups that engage and promote illegal activities. The right to associate also prohibits the government from requiring a group to register or disclose its members or from denying government benefits on the based on an individuals current or past membership in a particular group. There are exceptions to this rule where the Court finds that governmental interests in disclosure/registration outweigh interference with first amendment rights. The government may also, generally, not compel individuals to express themselves, hold certain beliefs, or belong to particular associations or groups.

The right to petition the government for a redress of grievances guarantees people the right to ask the government to provide relief for a wrong through the courts (litigation) or other governmental action. It works with the right of assembly by allowing people to join together and seek change from the government.



Comment #72: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 8:56pm ET...

How can passing a resolution that purports to legitimize the indefensible, islam and its evil teaching, and condemns the public's right to engage in political discourse by labeling it bigotry and intolerance, further the First Amendment?

Sandra you ARE confused.



Comment #73: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 8:57pm ET...

The first amendment is not a suicide pact.



Comment #74: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 8:59pm ET...

It is obligatory for the Islamic nation to invite people to Islam, to propagate it and to subjugate other nations to the Islamic system of ruling.
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=2817&TagID=2



Comment #75: Sandra said on 5/24/05 @ 9:00pm ET...

Search the opinions of the US Circuit Courts of Appeal
Search for: All Circuit Courts First Circuit Second Circuit Third Circuit Fourth Circuit Fifth Circuit Sixth Circuit Seventh Circuit Eighth Circuit Ninth Circuit Tenth Circuit Eleventh Circuit Federal Circuit District of Columbia Circuit
use and, or, not -- and is default
* acts as wildcard, phrases in "double quotes"
This collection has many hidden limitations. To find out what you're really searching, see the disclaimer .
Your query religion returned 2655 results.

Your search has returned a large number of results. You might want to consider using additional terms to narrow it.



Comment #76: Sandra said on 5/24/05 @ 9:03pm ET...

returning to the original link in Rep. Conyers proposal...

"Whereas the infringement of an individual’s right to freedom of religion violates the Constitution and laws of the United States: Now, therefore, be it.."

You will have to argue the merits here for yourselves; I'm heading out now.



Comment #77: whatever said on 5/24/05 @ 9:12pm ET...

Some of you folks wouldn't know what to do with yourselves all day if you didn't have a boogeyman to fear.



Comment #78: kAOSKTRL said on 5/24/05 @ 9:13pm ET...

Islam is a politcal movement whose stated purpose to to supplant the constitution with the Quran so just step opff with your relgion BS its a politcal movement.
a seditious one,no protection is needed .



Comment #79: Sandra said on 5/24/05 @ 9:22pm ET...

Stop Congress from Rolling Back Key Civil Rights Protections

Over the last two years, Congress has made clear that it would not allow government-funded religious discrimination. Despite this, the Bush Administration and several Members of Congress continue to promote religious discrimination with taxpayer funds. The first major legislative attempt this year to roll back key civil rights protections will soon be considered on the House floor.

The legislation -- the Job Training Improvement Act (H.R. 27) -- would jeopardize civil rights and religious freedom because it would roll back protection against discrimination or misuse of government funds by religious organizations. For the first time ever, it allows religious organizations involved in federal job training programs to discriminate according to religion when hiring staff for these taxpayer-funded services.

Government can and does work collaboratively with faith-based organizations. When these organizations receive public dollars, however, they must play by the same rules as other non-profits. Whether an organization is faith-based or not, there must be adequate protections in place to protect individual civil rights and religious freedom. The Job Training Improvement Act would eliminate these necessary protections.

Take Action! Urge Your Representative to Protect Civil Rights!

The Job Training Improvement Act must not allow taxpayer-funded discrimination. Unless Congress explicitly prohibits discrimination, the Bush Administration has made it clear that it will allow religious organizations that take federal funds to discriminate against applicants for jobs on the basis of religion, marital status, sexual orientation, gender, HIV status or any other characteristic that a religious organization finds objectionable. All federally funded employers must protect, not gut, the civil rights of all Americans.

Congress must not roll back civil rights legislation. If this act passes in its current form, it would be an unprecedented repeal of longstanding civil rights protections. It is critical that Congress continue to expand-not contract-our civil rights laws. We need to move forward, not backward.

This Act would allow violations of the Constitution. The Constitution prohibits the government from using federal dollars to fund religious discrimination in hiring for government-funded jobs. The Job Training Improvement Act would therefore authorize unconstitutional religious discrimination. If passed, this bill would expose the federal government, state and religious organizations to liability for violating the Constitution.

Click here to contact your Representative about this issue.

ACLU.org



Comment #80: Terminator said on 5/24/05 @ 9:27pm ET...

Intolerance is the natural end of tolerance.
Islam is nothing but intolerance and will bring about the end of civilization as we know it.

People who assist the Mohammedan cult to spread seem to be either oblivious, full of hate for their own cultures and hellbent on bring on desaster!
I call this treason!



Comment #81: Dave said on 5/24/05 @ 9:30pm ET...

This is shameless pandering. I cannot be forced to respect a book that is anti-Christian and is filled with lies, hatred, and errors. It is garbage and should be treated as such. However, instead of flushing this garbage, all Qur'ans should be recycled and turned into something worthwhile.



Comment #82: Ed B said on 5/24/05 @ 9:40pm ET...

I propose taking the korans, caoting the pages with pig grease and using it to pick up the pooch's droppings when you take it on a walk....

I would say use for T.P., but on reflection, I do not think that having that koranic filth touch my "parts" is likely to be a comfortable experience.....

;-)



Comment #83: Stop The Pandering said on 5/24/05 @ 9:50pm ET...

Suggest you see a proctologist. Perhaps he/she can remove your head from your bottom



Comment #84: Stop Pandering To the Religion of Hate said on 5/24/05 @ 9:52pm ET...

Re: Your Resolution

Suggest you see a proctologist. Perhaps he/she can remove your head from your bottom



Comment #85: Stop Pandering To the Religion of Hate said on 5/24/05 @ 9:53pm ET...

Re: Your Resolution

Suggest you see a proctologist. Perhaps he/she can remove your head from your bottom.



Comment #86: Uranis said on 5/24/05 @ 9:56pm ET...

How about a resolution condeming beheadings and setting off car bombs and school children



Comment #87: ljm said on 5/24/05 @ 9:58pm ET...

I knew the headbanging would be rampant on this thread. I'm so glad I got to go first. The thing about headbanging, it feels so much better when you stop. No minds are going to be changed with the continuing rant. One thing I did find interesting on that last thread, one poster mentioned that those who are bashing the Qu'ran don't like Bush. I'd like to know more about why that is? We know what we disagree about, what do we agree on, anything?



Comment #88: Dan said on 5/24/05 @ 10:02pm ET...

That might be interesting to see. A hell of a lot more interesting than the repetitious dissent.



Comment #89: blogroll said on 5/24/05 @ 10:10pm ET...

I was wondering just how long it would take before some lunatic in the house would propose making the desecration of a book illegal.
I wonder why if the supreme court states that burning a flag is protected under free speech just how would courts prosecute people for desecrating a book that they purchased.

People should remember that there are far to many ways to count that a Koran can be desecrated according to Islamic law.



Comment #90: Yasser Arafats Ghost said on 5/24/05 @ 10:13pm ET...

You're a good dhimmi Conyers !



Comment #91: Kryten42 said on 5/24/05 @ 10:16pm ET...

Ahhh..... I *LOVE* it when the GOP wingnuts all squeal! LOL

Way to go Rep. Conyers. And thanks for all you do.



Comment #92: Nana said on 5/24/05 @ 10:25pm ET...

LOL Christians, WWJD?



Comment #93: Rhonda said on 5/24/05 @ 10:26pm ET...

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=2817&TagID=2

http://www.khilafah.com

Hey you people, check out this anti American site



Comment #94: john said on 5/24/05 @ 10:33pm ET...

Representative Conyers, in his greed for pandering to a group of people that have ALREADY demonstrated their willingness to contribute to his campaign, has written a resolution that puts the Quran ahead of the bible for a people that would gladly do away with EVERY SINGLE PRO ABORTION PERSON in America if given the chance.

The power of money in Mr. Conyers cirlce: Truly remarkeble. Taking money and giving special favors to a group that believes GOD wants them to end the lives of every infidel in the world.



Comment #95: forsythe said on 5/24/05 @ 10:35pm ET...

Mr. Conyers: you would sell your soul to Satan for money wouldn't you? How much money did they give you?



Comment #96: newname said on 5/24/05 @ 10:35pm ET...

I see from this thread that we have been unable to avoid a global holy war...somehow I knew this would happen when Bush said "bring it on".

Anybody know when I can expect total nuclear annihilation? I want to make sure I get to say goodbye to my mom and my kids before we're all turned to ash.

It was a good life while it lasted.



Comment #97: Sherry said on 5/24/05 @ 10:36pm ET...

Hi Kira - I see the hate mob is back. I sure wouldn't want to meet one of these characters in a back alley - or on a main street for that matter. And, heaven forbid if I was inadvertently passing a mosque.

I really didn't understand the meaning of American Taliban until I encountered these folks. These are the kind of people that GW has shaped and molded in his own image, the same ones who are working tirelessly to abolish our constitution and replace it with a Christian theocracy. It is really scary how human beings can be brainwashed to this degree.

Newname - I enjoy all of your posts and learn from them. I liked how you outlined the differences between news, opinion, and spin in another thread.

Sandra - I love your posts as well. Keep on posting. Some of us have open minds and are willing to learn.

Dr. Levinson - Always a pleasure to hear your ideas. You give me hope that we may actually come out of the dark ages and into the light one day.

Mr. Conyers - As always, I am behind you 100%. I am totally against GW's orders to humiliate prisoners by destroying something they consider holy, but I don't think a Resolution protecting religions will stop GW. He thinks he is above the law. GW needs to be prosecuted for his crimes against humanity. Impeachment does not apply to GW since he was never elected to the office of President. Just cuff him and take him away. Why waste tax dollars on him?



Comment #98: mark wasserman said on 5/24/05 @ 10:37pm ET...

blogroll writes: I was wondering just how long it would take before some lunatic in the house would propose making the desecration of a book illegal.
I wonder why if the supreme court states that burning a flag is protected under free speech just how would courts prosecute people for desecrating a book that they purchased.

WELL SAID! Conyers is a two bit politician that is so hungry for money that he will suck up to anybody; whether it is the America hating left, the anti military nuts, or even the Muslim fundies that want us all dead or converted.



Comment #99: Kat said on 5/24/05 @ 10:40pm ET...

Piss on the Koran. You're a wingnut. You think we would riot and kill over a bible in the toilet? Islamofascists need to be deported not coddled. Strenth thru power.



Comment #100: keyl said on 5/24/05 @ 10:41pm ET...

CONyers is doing what he does best: pander. He panders to ANYBODY with a dime for his re-election campaign. For 25 years he has survived by telling people what they want to hear as long as they send him money. You left wing loonies better wake up to this. Conyers does not give one rats butt about you, just your money.



Comment #101: truthteller said on 5/24/05 @ 10:44pm ET...

There is one group of people the Islamic fundamentalists and Wahhabis hate more than anything and it is the Godless left in America.

You can be Christian and they will tolerate you for awhile. But if you are a Godless atheist, pro abortion, pro gay rights then you are despised by them and they will not allow you to survive in their world.

That is their livid truth.



Comment #102: John said on 5/24/05 @ 10:50pm ET...

Who care a whit about the damn book? Flush it, shread it, burn it, no matter what you do it's still just paper and ink.

If it's symbolism you want, then how about the Koran in an urn full of urine, the same as the Holy Bible has been treated.

Religion of peace! Sure.



Comment #103: Katie said on 5/24/05 @ 10:55pm ET...

I shit on the Koran



Comment #104: ljm said on 5/24/05 @ 11:01pm ET...

truthteller, from the looks of things here, doubt anybody you've described would be allowed to survive under the religion you profess to be part of, should you ever control the world. Pretty much a coin toss when put the way you've said it.



Comment #105: Jakester said on 5/24/05 @ 11:03pm ET...

Mr. Conyers,
This is utterly out of bounds for Congress to be endorsing any religion. Is the same going to be done for RC, Episcopalian? Maybe Islam should learn to stop murdering and destroying people and artifacts of other faiths, then they might get some respect. As it is, I respect neither Islam or you!



Comment #106: MMIIXX said on 5/24/05 @ 11:04pm ET...

Qu'ran ,Bible both fiction ,get over it.
Whats next "Holy Bullets and Bomb"?

Where's the PROOF there is even ONE god.

Which religious leaders become "suicide bombers" themselves or donate ALL their worldly goods to the poor or give their time at the local soup kitchen ........no thats for the "masses" not the power hungry.

An atheists frustration is knowing that when I die I will not be able to come back and say "fools you were wrong all along,there is no "afterlife" so don't waste the ONE life your've got fighting each other."

P.S. Why do the MOST religious countries live with the MOST poverty and oppression.



Comment #107: jack said on 5/24/05 @ 11:05pm ET...

jakester: you gotta learn about Conyers: its not about whats right or wrong: its about the MONEY. If Episcopalians were to send him some money, Conyers would have mentioned them by name in his resolution too!



Comment #108: Freedom Reign said on 5/24/05 @ 11:06pm ET...

This is America -- people can say whatever they want, about any religion.

And people whine about Bush being a "fascist" and that he's stealing "civil liberties"? This Conyers nuclear assault on the First Amendment is outrageous.

If you want to pass laws to protect the muslim "holy" book from scrutiny, move to Saudi Arabia.



Comment #109: notafan said on 5/24/05 @ 11:06pm ET...

One thing I am glad about: This blog is being archived by people running against Conyers in the next election. All this will see the light of day again.



Comment #110: TS said on 5/24/05 @ 11:11pm ET...

Oh great, Islamic blasphemy laws for America. So, Mr. Conyers, what should our punishment be for offending Islam? Death, as is practiced in Islamic countries? Or just a fine and jailtime?
Congress shall make no law respecting a religion, Mr. Conyers! And this 'resolution' is OBVIOUSLY meant to respect a religion in particular, Islam. You throw in some talk about all religions, but it is obvious what you are up to, only a blind fool couldnt see you seek to install Islamic blasphemy laws on American citizens!
I suppose it is rather telling that the Muslims who live in your district agree with you. Do you see that, fellow Americans? Muslims in America think we should die for insulting Islam, or at least be arrested!



Comment #111: William Woody said on 5/24/05 @ 11:13pm ET...

While I respect the desire you have for fostering cooperation and peace between different religious and racial groups through creating such legislation, I believe very strongly that this particular bill is fundamentally flawed for two reasons.

First, laws already exist which identify and make hate crimes illegal. Thus, attacking someone who is muslim for the sake of his religion is already a crime. Thus, such a law as the one you are proposing is unnecessary--if your goal is to reduce crimes caused by bigotry.

Second, by specifically identifying the Koran as a book which "should be treated with dignity" and by directing Federal and State authorities to enforce this sense, you explicitly open the door to gutting the First Amendment's protection of the freedom of expression.

Even if you were to remove all mention of Islam and the Koran, you still are opening up a can of worms by making it possible for any group out there to claim something is sacred, in order to make desecration of that thing illegal. And since "desecration" is often in the eye of the beholder, this becomes an extremely slippery slope indeed.

For example, one could argue that desecrating the Flag of the United States should be similarly outlawed, and for the same reasons. Or the Christian Bible--which would outlaw a number of publically funded artistic performances.

As I recall, the Supreme Court has ruled rather consistently that everyone has the freedom of religious expression of ideas and thought, but not necessarly the freedom to act upon their stated religious beliefs. For example, a cult which believes sacrificing a baby to their Lord Satan could reasonably be prevented from actually murdering babies. A cult which makes sexual intercourse for pay a part of their practice could also be shut down. Native American cults which hold certain drugs and drug use sacred could be stopped. And so forth. What is important is the preservation of the needs of the state to regulate for the common good, even if the beliefs of a particular religion are offended.

In this case, the same test must apply to Islam: as the United States has an overriding and compelling need (as you stated yourself) in preserving the freedom of expression in this country, that overriding need must necessarly override the sensibilities of Muslems who would otherwise take the right of non-Muslems from treating their Holy Koran in ways which may seem offensive. Meaning that if a private individual decides to tear pages out of the Koran and flush them down a toilet, it is in the interest of our Republic to protect that form of expression and protest--even if Muslems living in the United States are offended by that action. And it is in the interest of this nation to prosecute individual Muslem leaders who may otherwise issue a 'fatwa' and demand the murder of the person who desecrated the Koran.



Comment #112: MMIIXX said on 5/24/05 @ 11:15pm ET...

#109 and they have Diebold , to be sure.



Comment #113: Steve said on 5/24/05 @ 11:16pm ET...

This resolution is a clear violation of the First Amendment. Comment #72 is right on the ball. Comment #71 misses the point when mentioning the "preferring one religion over another". The Constitution is clear; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,...". Clearly, this violates the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

The Supreme Court, in its infinite tyranny, allows the burning of the Flag of the United States of America, within the United States, as protected speech guaranteed by the First Amendment. Why would burning the Koran, or virtually flushing it down a toilet (if Newsweek can be find one that's big enough), also not protected speech guaranteed by the First Amendment? Why aren't the sacred writings of other major religions mentioned in Congressman Conyer's resolution, the Torah of Judaism or the Bible of the Christians? What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Druidism, or Wiccan? Why are they not mentioned?

Congressman Conyer's resolution is a clear and complete violation of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. It would be the same if this resolution replaced the Koran with the Bible. To not see this is, at least, foolish; at most Unconstitutional and abominable.



Comment #114: Not A Dhimmi said on 5/24/05 @ 11:24pm ET...

I think you're a bloody idiot, Conyers.

Far from being a peaceful religion, Islam is the ONLY religion in the world to declare death to Apostates, and the ONLY religion to declare that non-followers should be relegated to second class citizen status or worse.

Anyone who actually bothers to read the Koran cover to cover will not find a "peaceful" religion at all, but rather a cultish, savage 7th-century travesty of brutality and carnage, founded by a pathetic pagan war-chief whose goal was not peace, but simply amassing his own empire and the largest harem he could put together.



Comment #115: TS said on 5/24/05 @ 11:26pm ET...

btw, Conyers, you didn't even spell religious correctly. (sheesh)



Comment #116: AvRAGEjoe said on 5/24/05 @ 11:33pm ET...

Whats up with the sliding around there Sir??
I keep it all .he of the gigantic hard drive reitterates.
Comment #148: Dan said on 5/21/05 @ 4:21pm ET...
knowislamnopeace,
I don't argue with people that have their minds made up. I would be wasting my breath refuting anythng you read on the topic, because you hold a belief that flavors whatever you absorb.
Believe me I could toss reams and reams and reams of stuff up here for you to read, I could refute until I was blue, but it would be pointless wouldn't it?
Just as this hatred you have is pointless in this place.
END QUOTE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I foolishly begin..........
Actually, NOislamKNOWpeace...er REWIND THAT! :) REVERSE IT:) (hadda put a wonkanizim in there) if you cannot answer ((what is a wonkanizim ?)) Then im not interested in you as anything but an agent of the evil that seeks to embrace the world...GOOD DAY SIR! . anyways, THAT person (knowislamnopeace) can put up REAMS and REAMS of TRUTH about ISLAM....PERIOD! I know of past writings from this individual. I suspect YOU have just about used up most of the Plausible denial tactics we have grow so accustomed to recieving from apologists and deluded quislings. So YOU bow out like you’ve WON or something...ha...ha..

Over and over the apolagists flee in the face of truth. It is not about hate, bigotry, religion, IT IS ABOUT the SURVIVAL of the HUMAN RACE as something other than warring tribes living in the ruins of civilization killing each other and the dhimmi over little differences in the way they practice ISLAM.... PERIOD. Regardless of the worldwide media crap that fools many into believing the usual rant about how amerika is evil.... this plot. That plot ...oppression of Muslims by the Zionist conspiracy... they are "like us" etc etc etc. The planets population is rapidly coming to see what the real TRUTH is ...Muslims and the rest of the worlds very existence are threatened by ISLAM .I see a recurring theme in my months of study, here is a quote
QUOTE>>>>>>>>America stands at the edge of a precipice that has the potential to cause the destruction of our nation, and its roots lie in an instutionalized arrogance caused by people who believe that their religion is somehow morally superior to some other religion.
END QUOTE>>>>>>>>>>>
That is GARBAGE it is NOT Christianity (I am agnostic)against ISLAM it is HUMANS against Islam , And useful idiots who don’t bother to clean the meat from the bone of truth but merely nibble the seasoned skin outside and throw the rest in the trash DON’T HELP. DAN! I accuse you of scrolling right past SANCTUARY (part 1)
Rabidly looking for any response to your words and foaming your retorts like they even mean something. Avoiding any real truth like a hydrophobic dog avoids water, some of us have spent the time to read each and every word (for AND against) Islam!!! Sometimes BOTH!! Without the imans even knowing. Read EVERY WORD at this site

http://63.175.194.25/

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php

EVERY WORD ALL YOU psuedo intellectual SLACKERS!

(The ones who aren’t islamists PRETENDING to be only "leftist useful idiots" that is........ (you know who you are and you prolly know most of the teachings at those sites anyways....Those guys are just doing their job for the umma... sowing dissention and trying to skew things off track with pitiful moral equivalences arguments and such.

THEN…. all the other petty crap. Like" bush is in the Saudi pocket.. The war was fer oil . Extremist Christians. And the Zionist plot etc etc etc etc add nausium" will finally be relegated into the background noise that they truly are in comparison to the GIGANTIC PROBLEM facing mankind today.....ISLAM
Not just the west not just joos.but ALL MANKIND MUSLIM INCLUDED... ....hopefully some kind of REAL response to this threat will begin BEFORE an ISLAMIC Europe is launching NUKES!!!…….TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT ALL!!!!......even if it does not fit your preconceived notions. There is a HUGE effort to hide the bottom layer of truth. But it gets peeled back more each DAY .The TRUTH....ISLAM=DEATH for the human species.....period. Those in it need to LEAVE IT. And then spread the word. I am pretty much ambivalent about all religions. But im all for the survival of the human species.

IN CONCLUSION. This “suggestion” is a first step toward treating ISLAM in the USA as a higher or loftier entity puts us further down the road to total enslavement of the world under the new caliphate. SHAME SHAME on YOU JOHN COYERS!!! Go do YOUR HOMEWORK READ IT ALLL QUIT YOUR JOB! BE A HERMIT if you have to READ IT ALL!!…Then get back to us.

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php

http://63.175.194.25/

Lazy bassids…. I am tired of em helping the umma …..If you can’t TRULY come from a position of knowledge about ISLAM then keep yer hoofs OFF the keyboard. And keep your vote pandering STUPIDITY out of our GOVERNMENT! Nutters, bigots and racists INDEED!…..Im NOT anti anybody…… I Am NOT anti-Muslim. I AM ANTI- ISLAM!!!!! If you know a Muslim find the hadiths and the surahs and make sure those poor people get a chance to read what they are truly supporting by naming themselves Muslims… and many shall ESCAPE before it is TOO LATE!
Thanxyou and goodnight



Comment #117: Ohiodem1 said on 5/24/05 @ 11:35pm ET...

Flash, this just in, most of the wifebeaters in Frankin County, Ohio are Christians!!! Some have actually gone to jail for it.

Just making a point, no religion has a monopoly on bad behavior.

Iraq has become the world's foremost hotbed of Radical Islamist Terrorist activity, because of the bad behavior of our President and his people who fabricated a story to start a war on a nation who was not belligerent with, nor threatening to, the United States.

It seems to me that the rage expressed in this and the other Religious tolerance thread is misplaced, and should be directed to the President who bears ultimate responsibility for acts that happen on his watch.



Comment #118: TS said on 5/24/05 @ 11:41pm ET...

#117 Ohiodem1 said "Flash, this just in, most of the wifebeaters in Frankin County, Ohio are Christians!!! Some have actually gone to jail for it."
How do you know, did you poll them for their religion? And furthermore, Jesus didn't tell his followers to beat their wives, but Muhammed did:
“Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them” (Sura 4:34).
That's the difference, Ohiodem1.



Comment #119: Sherry said on 5/24/05 @ 11:44pm ET...

MMIIXX #106 said, Qu'ran ,Bible both fiction ,get over it.

So true! Have you noticed how religious superstitions promote fear? It is the most superstitious among us who quake in fear at superstitions different from our own. A growling dog at the end of a chain is not mean. He is afraid. The people posting here are terrified of Islam because it has violent teachings. Have they bothered to look at the bible lately?

God said, "Kill all that pisseth against the wall, and all that have born child, but keep the virgins for yourselves."

I wonder if god commanded crusader GW to do that in Iraq.



Comment #120: dt3348 said on 5/24/05 @ 11:49pm ET...

Would you please introduce a similar resolution SPECIFICALLY mentioning the Bible and Christianty.

I seriously doubt that you will..



Comment #121: BSDetector said on 5/24/05 @ 11:53pm ET...

Wow. This sounds like a green light to allow Islamic nuts to do as they please and tie the hands of American citizens in being critical of those actions.
Of course non-Islamic elements will be held accountable for intolerance, but will Muslims themselves? Considering there is no shortage of anti-American and anti-Jewish literature in Mosques now, I highly doubt it.
Good Dhimmi, Conyers.



Comment #122: newname said on 5/25/05 @ 12:00am ET...

You folks have nothing on Newsweek for inciting violence. I really hope our troops get the armor they asked for, before links to this blog hit the Arab world.

I'm sure the photo of the church sign that said, "the Koran SHOULD be flushed" will be in newspapers all over the middle east by tomorrow.

But, hey, there might still be a Muslim or two that doesn't already hate us, so don't let me stop you from venting. You're doing a fine job getting us to Armegeddon.

Note to self: give husband extra hug.



Comment #123: AvRAGEjoe said on 5/25/05 @ 12:01am ET...

http://63.175.194.25/

No one listens.(READ IT ALL) hereyago.... ill make it easier and pick out some of the intersting ones for you.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=309&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=330&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=364&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=365&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=453&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=10382

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=13253&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=387&dgn=4

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=310&dgn=4

GET TO IT SLACKERS.
Thankyou and goodnight.



Comment #124: newname said on 5/25/05 @ 12:09am ET...

Oops...that should have read, "Newsweek has nothing on YOU, etc."

Preview, preview, preview.



Comment #125: A former Muslim now a Free man said on 5/25/05 @ 12:25am ET...

Mr.Conyers, I am a former Muslim who practiced and believd in the book of Islam. I tell you something. You keep your resolution in your bookshelf and shut up. Do you know every war committed by Muhammad was a violent unprovoked war? Do you know Quran and Islam advocate and prescribe beheading and cutting off infidels aka non-Muslims? And do you know why islamists do waht they do i.e raping people, murdering people by blowing them up, directing planes into WTC to kill 3000 people....the list goes on and on....

Please do not be a pig for money. Know the truth about Islam. Islam is not one bit peaceful as you think. Read the translation of Quran by Yusuf Ali, Bukhari or Pickthall. You will know that Quran advocates psychotic levels of violence towards non-muslims.

Don't be an idiot for money.....know what you are doing.

If you want to know more about Islam get a good Quran and read it yourself to understand how violent it is.

Please refrain from sponsoring stupid resultions like this one to cater to the needs of one violent cult. If you are that interested to care for muslims, move to Saudi Arabia. You may like it over there when you wife is all covered up and your girls are all covered up....

Learn to work with honesty Mr.Conyers. If you want to know about Islam, watch a video of one of those violent beheadings on the internet....and compare it with the verses in Quran in book 4. Then you might know these people demanding tolerance are actually the most intolerant people.....

Please do not make my internet particulars public. My family is still Muslim and they might kill me.



Comment #126: stephen said on 5/25/05 @ 12:38am ET...

this is about the stupidist piece of legislation I have read in a long time. The Quran is garbage that is used to justify killing and inslaving people who do not subscribe to it.



Comment #127: stephen said on 5/25/05 @ 12:38am ET...

This is about the stupidist piece of legislation I have read in a long time. The Quran is garbage that is used to justify killing and inslaving people who do not subscribe to it.



Comment #128: stephen said on 5/25/05 @ 12:54am ET...

#119 and 166: Undoubtibly you two have never read either of the two books.
There are 5686 manuscripts copies of the New Testament
Homer has only 643
Demosthenes has 200
Herodotus has 8
Plato 7
Tacitus 20
Caesar 10
and Pliny 7

There is 25 years between the original and first surviving copies of the New Testament
500 years for Homer
1400 years for Demosthenes
1400 years for Herodotus
1200 years for Plato
1000 years for Tacitus
1000 years for Caesar
750 for Pliny
So before you call them myth, fiction, fables or whatever you might want to study it. Otherwise your ignorance shows through



Comment #129: Joseph of Carpentry said on 5/25/05 @ 12:56am ET...

The Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch have weighed in on the fictitious Koran flush at Guantanamo. Both give us all reason to pause and reflect on the state of the Union.

For the Executive Branch we have this pronouncement from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice:

… disrespect for the Holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States.

Oh really? There are two problems with this statement and they are exceedingly, and profoundly, at odds with the Constitution for the United States that the Secretary has sworn an oath to defend:

1. The use of the adjective “Holy” by a member of the president’s cabinet in a statement issued in the course of executing their official duty is a direct affront to the phrase, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” that is enshrined in Amendment I to the Constitution. No government official has the authority to even suggest to the citizens of the United States what is “holy” or not “holy". Doing so is an assault on personal liberty itself. The individual, and only the individual, is endowed with the right to decide what is, and what is not “holy". Members of all branches of government need to reflect deeply on this point and to ensure that such language is never used in an official capacity. The citizens do not suggest it, they demand it, as it is their right to demand it.

2. “Disrespect” for the Koran has never been tolerated in the United States? Which United States are we talking about here, Madam Secretary? For it cannot be the United States of America with its 1st constitutional amendment stating, “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech …". I remind Madam Secretary that any citizen of the United States possesses the right to burn the Koran, defecate on the Koran, flush the Koran, roll up and smoke the Koran, or the Bible, or the Bagavad Gita, or the Zendavesta, or the Mahabharata, or the Torah, etc., as an expression of free speech.

Houston, we’ve got a problem. You see, in fact, “disrespect” for the Koran is now tolerated, has always been tolerated, and will always be tolerated in the United States, at least it will be for as long as there are patriots alive who are willing to defend the rights granted to them by the Founding Fathers. I suggest that the members of the president’s cabinet have a refresher course on the Constitution. Perhaps a one-day seminar would do the trick. I’m available and my hourly rates are reasonable. You know how to reach me.

And now above the glorious sound of incoherent cacophony that emanates from the Hill, we have this language being spewed from the office of House member John Conyers:

Today I introduced a straightforward Sense of the Congress Resolution that would simply condemn bigotry and intolerance against any religious group, and recognize that the Quran, as any other holy book of any religion should be treated with dignity and respect… I sent a dear colleague to every Member of the House asking for their support, and so far Reps. Jackson Lee, Eshoo, Filner, Kucinich, Meehan, Pascrell, and Serrano have signed on.

Here’s that word “holy” again, this time echoing through the halls of Congress. Don’t you guys get it yet? The median voter doesn’t want you, nor anyone else, especially anyone in government, to even suggest what is, and what is not “holy". Refer to Bill Of Rights 1st Amendment quoted above and the two comments on Dr. Rice’s brain flatulence. As for “intolerance against any religious group", how about any non-religious group? This liberty concept that folks like Mr. Conyers apparently have so much difficulty grasping, is a fundamental verity of the American ideology. The Constitution does not allow that the sense of Congress on intolerance can be extended to religious groups only.

Government officials who cannot grasp even the most basic principles of individual liberty should not be in office. It is up to the voters to flush them into retirement. They are also to be reminded that true patriots have always been at the ready to shake the handle.
Posted by: DrMack on DhimmiWatch but I couldn't have said it better!



Comment #130: RG said on 5/25/05 @ 1:00am ET...

Conyers, the next elected representative of your district will be a Republican, thanks to THIS BS you just put forth...



Comment #131: Olivia M. said on 5/25/05 @ 1:01am ET...

So some people in another country go all stupid over the alleged mistreatment of a book, and we need special resolutions in America? We already have protection for freedom of religion, I don't need to be dictated to that I have to respect them. This is a waste of time and money. Is there nothing more important to keep you occupied?

This will not help us get along. It will tie up courts & harrass and persecute people for any perceived "desecration" of books. Given the unreasonable superstitiousness of some religions, these "desecrations" could mean any silly thing. Don't like your book lower on the shelves than some other book at the bookstore? Desecration! Lawsuit! Oops, clumsy bookclerk drops your "holy" book. Desecration! Lawsuit! Your "holy" book at the library has torn pages, or somebody wrote a stupid comment in it. Desecration! Lawsuit!

Complete waste of time. Silliness of the highest order. Bound to be way more trouble than its worth, and to create more resentment, not less.



Comment #132: truthsword said on 5/25/05 @ 1:16am ET...

As an agnostic I will add this... Christians want to save the souls of those that do not believe as they do, Islamists are told to kill those that do not believe as they do. Who do you want living next door secularists? I'll take a Jehova's Witness calling any day over the head choppers. Why do the communists (read that socialists)want to be historical laughing stocks. Sad resolution with no thought behind it.



Comment #133: Zarqawi's Coffin said on 5/25/05 @ 1:27am ET...

Dear Rep. Conyers,

Since the U.S. is not a theocracy, (the Constitution wisely prohibited this course) kowtowing to a religion that opposes the Constitution is somehwat absurd. Any reading of the Koran shows that, like the Old Testament, it is a 'warlord's document' filled with "hatespeech", contempt for all other peoples, and a call to slaughter those who do not submit to this 'holy warriors' creed. In the case of Islam, you will find that its creed preaches an Imperialist and megalomaniacal desire to force the world into a global theocratic gulag, with Muslims as the masters lording over all 'lesser' humans- called 'infidels'.

Meanwhile, 'moderate' Muslims are bullied into a deafening silence, for fear of being targeted by their extremist co-religionists, so their views are rendered meaningless by their cowardice. Militant Muslims -jihadists- are out to overthrow the U.N.'s Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the American Bill of Rights, then establishing Sharia Law in their place. Their ideal State is a "Restored Caliphate", where women are worth half of a man and non-Muslims are second-class "niggers" ('dhimmis').

Please read this 'holy' book, which you wish to blindly defend, before you go off on such p.c. ditherings as this ill-considered resolution.

The Koran holds you in contempt.

To support your own diminishment seems a strange tactic.

To promote the value of a document that demeans ALL women is a strange choice for an American politician who swears to uphold and defend the Constitution.

Or are women not worth your concern?

Please withdraw this resolution, do a little research, and resist the urge to go off half-cocked.

As respectfully as you deserve,

Edo Van Ede



Comment #134: atoz said on 5/25/05 @ 1:37am ET...

Conyers:

You just got the whole Christian right organized and sending out faxes of this resolution of yours that gives more rights to Islam than any other religion.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Good luck finding another job after the next election and you get thrown out for being a MONEY GRUBBING pandering blithering twit!



Comment #135: notacair said on 5/25/05 @ 1:42am ET...

Representative Conyers

I bet you have never heard of separation of Church and State have you? Oh you did? When you JUMPED at the chance to condemn the Christian right for their insistance on some semblence of MORALITY in our country? That is when you discovered separation of church and state alright.

Now you are getting money from Islamic groups in Michigan that have been indicted for supporting terrorists. Who?

How about CAIR? How much money did they give you? How many have been indicted for supporting terrorism in CAIR?

I will be bringing this information on your resolution to my Church Congregation in Michigan.

You just lost all their votes.



Comment #136: Kryten42 said on 5/25/05 @ 2:15am ET...

Personally, I think the USA should just give the Southern states back to Great Britain. :) Let them handle the problem (and they would, with finality!) Hmmmmm.... Give them all the other red states too. :-)

Apologies to the 5% or so in those States that are actually sane. You could always move though. :-)

Oops! I guess this means I'm one of them! Intolerant! Oh dear... I think I can live with myself though, given the circumstances. :-)



Comment #137: Rune said on 5/25/05 @ 2:21am ET...

We had such laws in Denmark (enacted in the 30’s to fight anti-Semitism) but those are now being removed after Islamists have started abusing them to try to ban Theo van Gogh’s Submission and Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses. It would be an immense shame if the country everybody has as their beacon of how freedom of speech should ideally be were to take this step backwards – just when many others are finally moving forward. Don’t do it!

Be well, and be free
/Rune
Copenhagen, Denmark



Comment #138: randy said on 5/25/05 @ 2:47am ET...

Mr Conyers:

This legislation clearly offers special protection and consideration to one religion over others.
Also, my right to choose weather or not to deface, burn, or flush (in a safe way of course) MY Bible, Quran or Flag as a peaceful method of political expression is being taken away with this little gem of a bill. Do they actually PAY you to come up with this stuff?

Sincerely
Randy
standwithme.org



Comment #139: Galubka said on 5/25/05 @ 3:08am ET...

You say Muslims read the qu'ran to learn lessons about peace, well in my translation by Dawood there is an index with various subjects but there is no entry for peace, but about thirty of more for war.

Here is an example: Surah 9:123
'Believers make war on the infidels who dwell around you. deal firmly with them.Know that Allah is with the righteous'

Mr Conyers, you are a traitor. You are prepared to whitewash something that seeks to destroy America and try and lull Americans into a false sense of security just for the votes of your Muslim constituents.



Comment #140: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 3:19am ET...

Islam is not a religion it is a set of laws that calls for my death.
I do not tolerate intolerance.

http://www.road-to-heaven.com/quran/english/9.htm

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Lesson for Non-Muslims:

Islam is not just a set of rituals. Islam is a complete code for Humanity, meaning it has everything for every aspect of life. In Islam, politics, international relations, culture, economics, law, and other aspects of individual and community living are not distinct from Religion. They are an integral part of it.

http://www.ilaam.net/Opinions/IslamPolySci.html
It is obligatory for the Islamic nation to invite people to Islam, to propagate it and to subjugate other nations to the Islamic system of ruling.

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=2817&TagID=2

google taqiyya and kitman.



Comment #141: ditariel said on 5/25/05 @ 3:21am ET...

1. Mr. Conyers, though misguided, is not really a traitor. Please lay off of that. He actually does believe the bill he proposes would improve his nation. If you call this a traitor.....good lord.

2. While not a traitor, Mr. Conyers is still misguided. The entire crux of our American *cultural* element of Free Speech is the freedom to OFFEND.

-
Congress shall make no law respecting ab establishment of religion, or probiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press....
----

I view legislating "disrespect" as a trojan horse for excuses to abridge the preceding excerpt of the First Ammendment.



Comment #142: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 3:22am ET...

The invasion plan from the Quran

17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allâh and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.

living with peaceful muslim friends you call them citizens of islam why not citizens of America?
because they are the enemy .the ummah.

(“Radical Muslims have at times treated nonradicals as one large sleeper cell that can be activated by summons to the full practice of their religion. This is illustrated by a chilling story from the Ottoman Empire of the late nineteenth century:

‘Then one night, my husband came home and told me that the padisha had sent word that we were to kill all the Christians in our village, and that we would have to kill our neighbors. I was very angry, and told him that I did not care who gave such orders, they were wrong. These neighbors had always been kind to us, and if he dared to kill them Allah would pay us out. I tried all I could to stop him, but he killed them — killed them with his own hand.’

“In this light, the number of terrorists and their sympathizers is likely to grow beyond Pipes’ 100 to 150 million. In a very real sense this group is what the less militant majority considers to be the conscience of the umma. They are the people who actually dare to do what Alla said to do, whatever the cost.” (Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest-Growing Faith, by Robert Spencer))



Comment #143: ditariel said on 5/25/05 @ 3:32am ET...

Another point to bring up.....there was a controversy in 1960 over President Kennedy's Catholic identity. Thing was, to be a true Catholic, you must consider the Pope to be the highest authority. America recognized no foreign sovereignty. When the dust settled, all was well.

The problem is allegiance. What do you place first? The nation or your God?

Who do you take your orders from? A man or a book?

These questions must be answered by Muslims themselves, not by either our coffeehouse or courthouse bickerings.



Comment #144: Riggs said on 5/25/05 @ 4:01am ET...

I must congratulate you on finding a new and inventive way to waste time and money in congress. The last time I checked we, the citizens of the United States, already had laws covering sections (1) (2) and (4) of this resolution, thus making those sections pointless and redundant in comparison to our pre-existing codes.
Section (3) would require the government to recognize the Quran and all other holy books as being special to a religious establishment, thus violating the First Amendment to our Bill of Rights that specifically states:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” (emphasis added by me)
While I do feel that no one should be subjected to acts of violence, bigotry, and religious persecution. Your resolution’s continued references to the religion of Islam indicate that you feel that particular religion is MORE entitled to protection than any other. That simply is unconscionable, under the US Constitution all citizens are guaranteed the same Rights and your implications are that some groups are entitled to be more equal than others.



Comment #145: dissillusioned Aussie said on 5/25/05 @ 5:50am ET...

We have these "Hate" laws in Australia. A Christian Pastor from Pakistan (now an Aussie) gave his opinion of the Koran, exercising free speech.

$250,000 odd dollars later he is looking at a jail term, thanks to Muslims taking legal action.

So much for free speech in the West. The same awaits for the US.......



Comment #146: daffersd said on 5/25/05 @ 6:04am ET...

The key thing you are missing in all this is that Islam is also a political entity that submits to the words of Allah as defined in the Quran and various Hadiths which talk about waging war on the infidel to a great degree.

By putting forward such a resolution you are destroying free speach in the United States of America, you are going directly against your constitution and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Can you make a difference between political Islam and religious Islam, I think not.



Comment #147: shocked said on 5/25/05 @ 6:15am ET...

Wow

I can't believe how ignorant so many people are and how that ignorance drives such hatred and intolerance. I guess we've learned nothing since the beginning of time.

Islam does not seek to kill all non-muslims. I'm an atheist and I've lived among muslims in their countries for the past 20 years. I've always been welcomed very warmly.

Women don't walk behind men in the muslim world. I could go on and on trying to correct all the misinformation that's been posted here but something tells me that the hate-filled posters who are spreading these lies aren't interested in the facts, they are only interested in spreading more lies. Of course those of us who've been to college know that the reason for this is really just to cover up their own feelings of inadequacy. Unfortunately, it's innocent people who pay for the spread of such hatred.

I think a resolution to track down the posters who are spreading lies about ANY religion designed to incite hatred and have them arrested, fined heavily, their names published on a public list of people who spread hatred and maybe even spend some time in jail would be a good idea.



Comment #148: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 6:26am ET...

Really shocked ?
I have provided proof in the form of Quran quotes and I can do it all day long you provide an opinion that is simplly irrelevent.
Sure there are bad muslims but what happens when they get religion?
people die.politcal
Isalm is a hate group and deserves to be treated just like neo nazis or the Klan.they should be treated with derision and shamed .



Comment #149: Barb Meier said on 5/25/05 @ 6:56am ET...

So what's the punishment for this crime against muslim religious objects going to be? Beheading?



Comment #150: daffersd said on 5/25/05 @ 7:25am ET...

Shocked, you will be shocked if you listen to this Friday semon...

http://www.memritv.org/Favorites.asp#

That is what political Islam is all about.



Comment #151: hutchrun said on 5/25/05 @ 7:30am ET...

Omar Ahmad
Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations

President and CEO of Silicon Expert Technologies. A Palestinian who grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan.

"Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." - Omar Ahmad

Ibrahim Hooper
CAIR Spokesperson
"CAIR does not support these groups publicly."
(Hooper comments on CAIR's record of supporting Hamas,
Hezbullah and other official terrorist groups)

"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education." - Ibrahim Hooper

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/



Comment #152: hutchrun said on 5/25/05 @ 7:33am ET...

CHAPTER 7

http://voi.org/books/tcqp/

Islamic State is an Agency for Spreading the Faith

“By the theory of its origin the Muslim State is a theocracy. Its true king is Allah, and earthly rulers are merely His agents, bound to enforce His law on all. Civil Law is completely subordinated to Religious Law and, indeed, merges its existence in the latter. The civil authorities exist solely to spread and enforce the true faith. In such a State, infidelity is logically equivalent to treason, because the infidel repudiates the authority of the true king and pays homage to His rivals, the false gods and goddesses. All the resources of the State, all the forces under the political authorities, are in strict legality at the disposal of the missionary propaganda of the true faith.

Tolerance towards Infidels is Tantamount to Sin

“Therefore, the toleration of any sect outside the fold of orthodox Islam is no better than compounding with sin. And the worst form of sin is polytheism, the belief that the one true Allah has partners in the form of other deities. Such a belief is the rankest ingratitude (kufr) to him who gives us our life and daily bread…

http://voi.org/books/tcqp/chi7.htm



Comment #153: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 7:56am ET...

The people who support this are all Dhimmis, literally. How can you observe the Islamic world and see that the intolerance is not here in this country it is in the theocratic states in the ME. I would go on but it would be to no avail, you all are already committed to your possibly future oppressors. Come on folks, burqas, women as property of men, not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, Christians and Jews as second class citizens never mind women banned from voting or moving about freely or getting an education. 90% percent of the conflicts in the world are Muslim conflicts. You only see what you want to see. Using "tolerance", and by that you most certainly mean "Islamic tolerance", as an excuse to step on the first amendment of the constitution.



Comment #154: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 8:03am ET...

Shocked

Your post consists of nothing but buzz words: Hate, intolerance, hate, intolerance. Seems someone has a case of prejudgment because we don't tow your line. You claim to have more knowledge than the "ignorant haters" posting "lies" here. Well your testimony of your experiences is not proof of facts anymore than any other statement made here. Who is really exercising intolerance here?



Comment #155: Olivia M. said on 5/25/05 @ 8:13am ET...

Well, there you go. #147, last paragraph, by a Mr. "Shocked" is where this insidious resolution will lead us. Tracking people down who spread "lies" about a religion. Who decides what is a lie, Mr. Shocked? If I sit here and say that all religion is a bunch of fairy tales, and all religiouns say I lie, will you want me tracked down and prosecuted??? What you are proposing is creepy, dangerous and sick. Thought police. Orwellian. Anti-freedom. Anti-everything normal. Evil. I do not want to live in such a society. If you are an American, you do not get it. You should leave. Go to Iran or Saudi Arabia. That would suit you more. Don't bring that backward barbarity here. Don't spoil what people have died for.

Mr. Conyers - take note of what your well-intentioned, but hopelessly, dangerously misguided proposal will beget. Read last paragraph of #147. It makes me shudder. It makes me weep.



Comment #156: Dave said on 5/25/05 @ 8:30am ET...

And this may have been mentioned already.. but if seperation of church and state is such a big deal to you folks.. what the heck is a resolution about a specific religion even being attepted??? Its a farce!!



Comment #157: NasvyspyII said on 5/25/05 @ 8:47am ET...

Bad idea John, very bad.

If your intent is to craft legislation protection the free expression of religious faith, we already have that. Both at the Federal, and the State level.

Cease, and desist. Unless you plan to also specifically mention the Bible, the Torah, and all other religious texts, you're going to have problems. This legislation will only cause more dissention in our population.



Comment #158: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 8:54am ET...

Islam calls for my death Mr.Conyers.
Islam calls me an abomination.

There is no doubt that Allah commanded us to strike the Kuffar (unbelievers), kill them, and fight them by all means necessary to achieve the goal. The servants of Allah who perform Jihad to elevate the word (laws) of Allah, are permitted to use any and all means necessary to strike the active unbeliever combatants for the purpose of killing them, snatch their souls from their body, cleanse the earth from their abomination, and lift their trial and persecution of the servants of Allah.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/2005/05/006295print.html



Comment #159: Knowislamnopeace said on 5/25/05 @ 8:56am ET...

Tolerance is a two-way street. I would be curious to see what the supporters of Mr. Conyers here have to say about the gentleman in this article, Mr. Miller...

Prayer room at UM-Flint sparks clash
"Some groups say Muslims were monopolizing space," from the Flint Journal, with thanks to EPG:

FLINT - A room for peaceful reflection and prayer at the University of Michigan-Flint has become anything but.
Instead, Room 386 at the University Center - known as the Meditation Room - is at the heart of a months-long religious dispute between Muslim and non-Muslim students.

The non-Muslims began complaining in November that Muslim students were monopolizing the room and filling the tiny space with religious paraphernalia and anti-Israel literature.

The Muslim students countered that they were being unfairly targeted and appealed to the university for religious tolerance.

"I do think that the current political climate does contribute to Islamophobia," said Bishr Aldabagh, a former UM-Flint Student Government Council president and student commencement speaker.

"The room serves the needs of students from different religions, but I do think that the reaction would have been different if the room was used predominantly by Christians or Jews."

UM-Flint student Zea Miller, 22 of Flint asked the university, in a written petition, to allow a more balanced use of the room, urging it to "whitewash" the walls and remove all religious items - a move that he said caused him to be stalked and harassed.

The university investigated Miller's claims about being harassed and said they were unfounded.

"There are people who feel offended and intimidated being in the Meditation Room or within the presence of artifacts representative of beliefs not their own," Miller said in his petition.

Miller said he was acting on his own, but others feel the same. Miller, a staff member of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Center, doesn't belong to any of UM-Flint's four student religious organizations.

The walls of the room, about the size of a storage room, once held posters, Muslim Student Association awards and framed pictures. Prayer rugs and other books also were stored in the room. Muslim students use the space to perform religious practices, such as praying five times a day, as required by their faith.

"I took it upon myself to file the petition; I did this on behalf of others who were afraid to," Miller said. "It was not bigoted. I would have done this against any group who usurped the room. Now, at every move I'm being accused of anti-Muslim behavior. I am not anti-Muslim."



Comment #160: Ronin11208 said on 5/25/05 @ 9:00am ET...

_
Comment #147: shocked said on 5/25/05 @ 6:15am ET...

Wow

I can't believe how ignorant so many people are and how that ignorance drives such hatred and intolerance. I guess we've learned nothing since the beginning of time.

Islam does not seek to kill all non-muslims. I'm an atheist and I've lived among muslims in their countries for the past 20 years. I've always been welcomed very warmly.

Women don't walk behind men in the muslim world. I could go on and on trying to correct all the misinformation that's been posted here but something tells me that the hate-filled posters who are spreading these lies aren't interested in the facts, they are only interested in spreading more lies. Of course those of us who've been to college know that the reason for this is really just to cover up their own feelings of inadequacy. Unfortunately, it's innocent people who pay for the spread of such hatred.

I think a resolution to track down the posters who are spreading lies about ANY religion designed to incite hatred and have them arrested, fined heavily, their names published on a public list of people who spread hatred and maybe even spend some time in jail would be a good idea.
_

Sounds fascist to me...



Comment #161: Satan's Daughter said on 5/25/05 @ 9:15am ET...

Dearest #95,
Satan doesn't want or need to buy souls. I am deeply offended by your comment.
Hail Satan!



Comment #162: Kryten42 said on 5/25/05 @ 9:18am ET...

Well, that just proves that Muslims and Christians can get along. :-) I am a born-again Christian (and as the bible states, only a person reborn under the baptism of the Holy Spirit is truly a Christian) And I agree with the Islamic's in the above case. :) You are an abomination at the very least.

And please, all those nutters pretending to be Christians. You insist on quoting the *OLD* Testament to justify your bigotry, intolerance and hatred, and yet, Jesus Christ gave us the *NEW* testament and did away with the old laws of Moses. At the Last Supper, he gave us a *New Covenant* And the Most important LAW under that Covenant was Love.

Of course, I don't expect that to mean anything to you evil false Christians. But He even gave people such as you an out. You can *Truly* repent! (And BTW, That does NOT mean being evil all week, because on Sunday, some Priest or pastor or whoever will forgive your sins. Jesus descended into Hell itself and claimed souls for His Father (which pissed of Satan big-time!). Only God can forgive. And Jesus said that their is no room for the love of God in a heart filled with hate. So the fact that you are all here spewing out your anger and hatred, means that you do not have the Lord in you. Therefore, you are all liars, one of the deadly sins in Revelations.

Amen! :-)



Comment #163: Satan's Daughter said on 5/25/05 @ 9:23am ET...

#111
Satanists do NOT sacrifice babies, nor do we sacrifice animals. Blood sacrifice is part of the Abrahamic tradition, not ours. It started when Yahwah preferred Cain's sacrifice to Abel's.



Comment #164: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 9:24am ET...

Here we go with the "Intolerance" and "Hatred" mantra again...



Comment #165: Lisa said on 5/25/05 @ 9:27am ET...

Way to go Conyers! Playing right into the hands of the wahhibists!



Comment #166: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 9:31am ET...

Thanks for that kitman42

MAS's Muslim Brotherhood Problem
Does the Muslim American Society want an Islamic government in the United States?
by Daveed Gartenstein-Ross
05/25/2005 12:00:00 AM

ON MAY 14, 2005, PAX-TV's Faith Under Fire broadcast a debate that I took part in against Mahdi Bray, the executive director of the Muslim American Society's (MAS) Freedom Foundation. Bray had selected the debate topic in advance, and chose to argue about "The United States of Islam?"--that is, whether American Muslims wanted to see Islamic law (sharia) implemented in the United States. While I unwaveringly agreed that most American Muslims don't want to see the United States ruled by Islamic law, I nonetheless jumped at the chance to debate this topic against Bray. After all, the Chicago Tribune recently published a story detailing how the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood operates in the United States as none other than MAS. So while most American Muslims don't want to see the United States governed by sharia, Bray's organization does. And while researching for the debate, I found that MAS--except in its most public of statements--is quite open about its agenda and allegiances. Even a brief review of various MAS chapters' websites provides a revealing look at what the national organization is teaching its members.

Read it all

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/651lbxol.asp?pg=1

Snip
Because the Brotherhood views Islam as all-encompassing and universal, one of its highest goals is to spread Islamic law. The Chicago Tribune explains that the controversial "ultimate goal" of the U.S. Brotherhood is "to create Muslim states overseas and, they hope, someday in America as well." Brotherhood members did emphasize to the Tribune that they operate within the laws of the countries where they live:

They stress that they do not believe in overthrowing the U.S. government, but rather that they want as many people as possible to convert to Islam so that one day--perhaps generations from now--a majority of Americans will support a society governed by Islamic law.

Despite these pronouncements, the Muslim Brotherhood has not always been known for non-violence. The "Qur'an and a sword" outlook trumpeted by al-Banna is, for example, evident in the organization's militant motto: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Consistent with this motto, Muslim Brotherhood members have been involved in such episodes as the assassination of Egyptian Prime Minister Mahmud Fahmi Nokrashi and the attempted assassination of Gamal Abdel Nasser.



Comment #167: Reginald de Curry said on 5/25/05 @ 9:37am ET...

As you can see, Mr. Conyers, the vocal minority of those who preach hatred are VERY vocal. Try to remember that the majority still prefers tolerance, and that they will support you on this issue.



Comment #168: Lisa said on 5/25/05 @ 9:38am ET...

If this resolution is passed I guess the women better start getting used to wearing burqas as not to offend muslim men in this country. The U.S. is well on its way to being a third world Islamic theocracy. I would Christian fundamentalists any day over these whackos.



Comment #169: Lisa said on 5/25/05 @ 9:42am ET...

"As you can see, Mr. Conyers, the vocal minority of those who preach hatred are VERY vocal. Try to remember that the majority still prefers tolerance, and that they will support you on this issue."

No one is preaching hatred! We are concerned about Conyers elevating one religion (Islam)over another. I should be able to speak my mind about a religion that calls for my death thank you very much!



Comment #170: Juke said on 5/25/05 @ 9:45am ET...

Why not just bend over & ask the muslim extremists to take it easy on us John?



Comment #171: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 9:50am ET...

Reginald de Curry

Go on believing that you occupy the moral high ground and the rest of what you call "vocal minority" (anything but) is rife with ignorance and hatred. Don't actualy take the time to read the numerous dissenting opinions, just skip over it and paint them all with a broad brush. Your one paragraph, arrogant and condescending post tells a lot about the "tolerant" left that is actually the minority voice as the 2004 elections revealed.



Comment #172: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 9:51am ET...

Hey John its going around
you going to do duwa ?

California Congresswoman kowtows to CAIR

"Capps meets with local Muslim organizations," from the Santa Maria Times, with thanks to EPG:

Congresswoman Lois Capps was honored May 14 by the Central Coast Islamic Center of Santa Maria and the Central Coast chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

The groups held a round-table meeting with Capps to discuss social issues currently facing Muslims on the Central Coast and throughout the United States.

The conversation centered on post-Sept. 11 attitudes toward Muslims in America and concern over whether consequential acts of government, like the Patriot Act, infringe on civil liberties.

"What we request of you (Capps) is to enlighten the rest of Americans about Muslims, about Islam, about who we are and what we do," said Mohammed Diab, a participant in the meeting.

Nary a word, evidently, from Capps asking them to be more cooperative with anti-terror efforts.

There is something creepy and faintly of the Orwellian double-speak when Muslims talk like this:

"What we request of you (Capps) is to enlighten the rest of Americans about Muslims, about Islam, about who we are and what we do," said Mohammed Diab, a participant in the meeting.

Note the requirement that the Congresswoman prosletyses for Islam, to actively become an advocate for Islam. Do Jewish or Hindu groups in America make similar requests? And if America was told about 'what Muslims do', like preach hatred for America and the West, things would get very nasty.

No, this is a meeting taking place with the mentality of a conquerer instructing his dhimmi. The fatuous pomposity of this arrogant fantasising is hilarious, but indicative of deep disturbance.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006327.php#comments



Comment #173: "Bob" Dobbs said on 5/25/05 @ 9:53am ET...

As long as we're defining what is "holy" by law I want to be sure to include "The Book of the SubGenius".

Thank you for your attention.

PS: Did the Taliban help you write this resolution?



Comment #174: Kay said on 5/25/05 @ 9:58am ET...

This is just agit-prop from Conyers. He is pandering to those that cheered when 9/11 happened.



Comment #175: ice eater said on 5/25/05 @ 10:00am ET...

What a waste of time!
Jobs being exported to China, a mountin of debt, wars and terror almost all involve Islam, and this goofy congressman has time to make a religous freedon sense of the Senate. Fiddle fiddle fiddle. When will the music will stop. How many blacks do the muslims need to kill in Sudan to stop it now.



Comment #176: Don said on 5/25/05 @ 10:02am ET...

Can you please include Church of the Infidel in your resolution?



Comment #177: Christopher said on 5/25/05 @ 10:03am ET...

We already have freedom of religion protected by the Constitution and civil liberities of Americans are already protected.

Why do we need a special resolution for Mohammedans because of a false story in Newsweek?



Comment #178: Pitiricus said on 5/25/05 @ 10:11am ET...

Well, I believe somebody should be reminded of the first amendment...

Now I am going to use my koran for the only reqal use it has: toilet paper!



Comment #179: Heather said on 5/25/05 @ 10:19am ET...

BIZARRO WORLD

I don't believe in any God, and I don't really care who does, so long as they don't get mean about it.

All the Christian EXTREMISTS and the Muslim EXTREMISTS condone some sort of horrible writhing agony for me and anyone of a different faith than theirs. I don't guess you like me much. There are no decent predictions for me in either EXTREMIST view.

Well I've got news for all EXTREMISTS, if I should writhe in any sort of agony, it won't be caused by the wrath of anyone's invisible friend, it will be because SOMETHING CELLULAR OR MOLECULAR hurts a lot. period.

And there is now a distinct chance that YOU PERSONALLY will be the cause of my agony. You and your intolerant, extremist, interfering, brethren.

This is messing with my life. You have gotten in the way. I have no choice but to push you away.

My experience with truly religious people has been a quiet one filled with work to better the lot of humankind in his/her everyday existence, without regard for who is the better or worse. They don't live in castles. They don't demand more respect than they give.

UGH
Leave me the hell alone. Go live on an island somewhere, cast your eyes heavenward, and verbally jerk yourselves off into eternity. Better yet, take a proclaimed enemy with you and have a contest to see who can get there first!
JUST GO AWAY.

The reason for this legislation is to get you all to STOP before your insane actions cause an even bigger religious war over who's invisible friend is the most vengeful of all, and that, my friends, will be the war that ends it all.

The reason the Koran is singled out is because RIGHT NOW, ALL OVER THE WORLD, THE TWO RELIGIONS MOST HIJACKED BY EXTREMISTS are engaged in an all out 'who can piss higher on the post' display of death.

I DO NOT WANT TO DIE FOR YOUR INTOLERANCE. I DO NOT WANT MY CHILDREN OR MY FRIENDS TO DIE BECAUSE OF YOUR INTOLERANCE.

ONE OF YOU HAS TO BE THE GROWNUP HERE AND STOP THIS.

and so...
I support Rep. Conyers in this most difficult task.

Have a great day.



Comment #180: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 10:25am ET...

Heather

Moral equivalence, huh? Christian EXTREMISTS! Where? Muslim ETREMISTS! Yes, by the thousands, reeking havoc all over the globe. Stop trying to equate the two. There is only one that truly wants to harm you. bye the way, I am an Atheist but I can tell the difference between what is right and wrong, and currently there is only one cult blowing up innocents at alarming numbers all over the planet.



Comment #181: publius said on 5/25/05 @ 10:26am ET...

If burning an American flag, an act which I find highly offensive, is an act protected as free speech by the First Amendment, then to desecrate the "holy" book of any religion must also be an act of free speech protected by the First Amendment.

Further, this law would constitute a specific endorsement of Islam by the government, and would be an act of Congress establishing a religion, which, if you've read the Bill of Rights lately, you might recall is expressly forbidden.

Last, this law would be an act of Congress preventing the free exercise of my religion, Satanism. Satanism teaches that the teachings of any faith-based religion, especially Christianity and Islam, are comprised predominantly of lies and fiction. The First Amendment grants to me as a fundamental civil right the right to non-violently tell Christians and Muslims that their immams and priests are misleading them.

In conclusion, Mr. Conyers, please do not take away the First Amendment to try to appease a violent group of religious radicals and nuts.



Comment #182: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 10:28am ET...

I can only say that the author of this resolution is a moron. You bury your head in the sand, proposing tolerance of the most intolerant religion in the world. While you bend over backwards not to offend Muslims, they want nothing more than to kill all the "infidels," and subjugate the idiotic "dhimmis" who are too cowardly to call a spade a spade. You sir, are a dhimmi - a non-muslim who cedes allegiance to the superiority of Islam. You do realize that the "religion of peace" wants nothing short of world domination, don't you?

The first amendment guarantees a person's right to be a Muslim and to practice their religion, and it guarantees my right to criticize their religion; it does NOT guarantee them immunity from criticism or accusation. Anything that gave them such immunity would infringe on my first amendment right to speak my mind freely. The fabled "seperation of church and state" (which is found nowhere in the Constitution) seems to be ignored. The phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (which IS in the Constitution), seems to be beyond your comprehension. It basically says that your resolution is unconstitutional, as you blatantly include phrases "respecting an establishment of religion," namely the intolerant Islamic faith. And you call yourself a lawmaker. You know nothing.



Comment #183: Heather said on 5/25/05 @ 10:39am ET...

Sean 180

Which cult is it that employs generals that PUBLICLY equateAllah with Satan, engages in illegal and immoral wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people in their sleep? Leaves children without arms or legs? Rapes women? Sodomizes men? Tortures prisoners. KILLS prisoners, Literally BEGS the OTHER EXTREMISTS to come out and play? WHICH CULT IS THAT?

have you been asleep SEAN????



Comment #184: diana said on 5/25/05 @ 10:40am ET...

When will the fighting stop? Why can't we all just get along? The fighting will stop when the people realize that RELIGION is the reason for most wars. RELIGION is just another word for POWER in the physical world. Religion and democracy are at odds with each other because religion obtains power from the top down but democracy obtains power from the bottom up. Religion is thrown into the political arena because the want the power to source from the top down, as in religion AND IN CORPORATIONS.

We need to tame the giant corporations,as Ralph Nader said, so they will include the laborers, and consumers along with the stockholders in setting goals for the corporation. We could boycot for a few months and then "purchase" the corporation if they don't voluntarily agree... kinda of like what they do to us when we sign credit card agreements, etc...THE "GOOD" IN MAN IS WHAT MOST MEN CALL "GOD".



Comment #185: BadGenome said on 5/25/05 @ 10:42am ET...

What the hell? "No disrespect of that religion or its holy book"? As an avowed Satanist, I find this disturbing and despicable. Are you truly suggesting, Mr. Conyers, that Islam and the Qu'ran are to be held in higher regard than the First Amendment?

And I must say that I find it utterly hilarious to watch the bleeding heart leftists tie themselves in knots as they applaud your douche bag antics in the name of "tolerance." If you were to propose outlawing the desecration of the Bible or pictures of Mary smeared with elephant feces, these halfwits would see this for the evil, repressive thought-policing it is.

Rot, Mr. Conyers.



Comment #186: diana said on 5/25/05 @ 10:45am ET...

I need to add.... and as long as we all keep fighting, we cannot form a viable democracy.

STOP THE BICKERING. FOCUS ON WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON. That is what a real democracy should do. We don't have a democracy in US. I used to think we did. Now I know we don't. We do have the tools to try to get one. Let's roll!



Comment #187: diana said on 5/25/05 @ 10:45am ET...

I need to add.... and as long as we all keep fighting, we cannot form a viable democracy.

STOP THE BICKERING. FOCUS ON WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON. That is what a real democracy should do. We don't have a democracy in US. I used to think we did. Now I know we don't. We do have the tools to try to get one. Let's roll!



Comment #188: phil said on 5/25/05 @ 10:51am ET...

What's next, Shari'a? No way do we allow anti-blasphemy laws to prohibit the free speech guaranteed in the First Ammendment. How about encouraging the leaders of the Religion of Peace to speak out loudly and repeatedly against the worldwide terrorist antics of those professing to follow Islam? That would do far more to quell any redneck dissing of Muslims per se.



Comment #189: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 10:54am ET...

Heather

Your response tells me all I need to know. You are on the fringe, an obvious apologist. Targeting civilians in the name of religion and unintentional killing of innocents during wartime (religious war on one side only) is another example of you trying to equate the two. Rapes woman? WTF? That is an example of pure agenda ridden spew. You cannot throw an accusation like that out there and offer no corroborating evidence, and don't come back with a newspaper claim of one example and use that to represent all of our armed forces. Torture and humiliate are two different things. Once again kills prisoners? Oh, I get it , the marine who shot a wounded Jihadi that was part of the same click that killed another marine earlier that week with a booby trapped Jihadi. As I said I am an atheist but I would have to agree that Allah is representative of Satan myself. You complain about our tolerance of the most oppressive cultures still in existence then generalize about our military men. It is sad that you see things through such a radical prism. What draws you folks to such a self loathing, apologetic, nihilistic life outlook?



Comment #190: KWP said on 5/25/05 @ 10:59am ET...

<>

If this type of resolution goes anywhere, yes. That's exactly what this is.

This can of worms was never intended to be opened by the Founding Fathers. The seperation of Church and State (or mosque and state as the case may be) is a good idea -- we should keep it.



Comment #191: Eric said on 5/25/05 @ 10:59am ET...

This resolution is a bad idea for several reasons, but the most obvious one is that it stifles our freedom of speech.

Let me give you an extreme example of what happens when you start passing 'blasphemy' laws:
One of the main reasons that Islam has not developed and become more moderate and modern is that debate concerning the meaning of the Quaran was stopped by edict, in the 12th century. To debate the meaning of the Quaran is apostasy, and is punishable by death.

One of the things our founding fathers left Europe over was freedom of religion. This resolution tells me one thing; that you don't know the history of our country or the words of our constitution and bill of rights.



Comment #192: Goon said on 5/25/05 @ 10:59am ET...

Why do the agents of ISLAM acting as concerned uninformed US citizens keep acting like people of the book are as RABID as they are?? moral equivilance, Transferance of the WORST kind , Transferance is what psycos do They turn everything around on the people they are destroying with thier alcaholizim or whatever and NOTHING is thier fault , I say AGAIN!! its not the friggin biblethumpers that has a filthy knife at the worlds throat.i dont particularly LIKE biblethumpers ,

BUT I AND MANY LIKE ME HATE ISLAM.FOR GOOD REASON!!I submit that YES the posters here DO need to be tracked down and you will see how many who pretend to be some kind of a "voice of reason against the "hate" ARE ISLAMISTS!!!!!PRETENDING.What a buttload of complete crap.AMERICA DOES NOT NEED ISLAM IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, Its NOT about the damn BIBLE its NOT about HATRED. IT IS ABOUT ISLAM AND THE HATE HATE HATE HATE 24-7 that this blood drenched book causes.BAN THE KORAN!BAN ISLAM! there! is THAT friggin FACIST enough for you??...This is just STUPID.PEOPLE WHO STUDY KNOW!!!!People who DONT are FULL OF CRAP. I dont care how many NICE MUSLIMS you may know it means NOTHING . READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK. well...the sheep dhimmi we can all get along crowd sez EVERY TIME. they say ..blah blah "old testament" etc etc, i say When biblethumpers start MURDERING PEOPLE the way ISLAM does then mebbie ill begin to study the bible as much as i do the quran, HADITH! AND SIRAH!!READ THE BOOK MORONS. If you dont KNOW THE ISLAMIST AGENDA STFU.Buncha muslims pretending to be avrage Americans support John Coyers and you CANT CONVINCE ME OTHERWIZE , THIS is only one small tactic in a HUGE arsnel of DECEPTION.ISLAM=DEATH of the human race .PERIOD .This is not HATE. this is not bigotry this is only TRUTH. IDIOTS!!! ISLAM=DEATH of the HUMAN RACE ...PERIOD.
READ THE BOOK...THE KORAN.or QURAN. NOT what some MUSLIM tells you but ON YOUR OWN ......IDIOTS!!!
how can somany be so DUMB and GREEDY?????Sickening truly pathetic!!!Have a DAMN SPINE .SHOW SOME STRENGTH!



Comment #193: KWP said on 5/25/05 @ 11:00am ET...

(above statement in response to Sharia post 188)



Comment #194: wwrwtw said on 5/25/05 @ 11:02am ET...

Mr.Conyers,
When are you going to get it? This resolution does a great disservice to the American people. It is misleading and full of lies.
Obviously you. your staff and your co-sponsers have done absolutely NO research on the subject islam before you proposed this. You have been given a plethora of information in these comments. DO NOT IGNORE IT!



Comment #195: rudie said on 5/25/05 @ 11:03am ET...

Everybody who loves this country should reject Conyers' resolution. Koran is not a holy book. It incites people to violence againt non-Muslims and spreads hatred and prejudice. The vast majority of current conflicts are initiated by Moslems. Moslems routinely desecrate cristian, jewish and hindu historical monuments and books on the regular basis. One can't even have a Bible in Saudi Arabia. Please read jihadwatch.org and prophetofdoom.net to get real picture of Islam based on deep studies of Koran and other holy books revered by Moslems.



Comment #196: JP said on 5/25/05 @ 11:05am ET...

The resolution, to be introduced by Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.),.. expresses America's respect for the holy texts of all faiths. [John.Conyers@mail.house.gov]
__

When Muslims stop beheading Americans, we'll think about giving some respect.

When Muslims stop trying to destroy Israel, we'll think about giving some respect.

When Congress has as much concern for, and stops funding "art" with crucifixes soaked in urine and a Madonna smeared with feces, we'll think about giving some respect.

When Congress has as much concern for the burning of the American flag, we'll think about giving some respect.

When Congress has as much concern for Jewish and Christian bibles, we'll think about giving some respect.

We will be intolerant of any so-called religion whose goal is to slaughter us if we refuse to bow down to them.



Comment #197: Daud Hous said on 5/25/05 @ 11:09am ET...

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Dutch parliamentarian who was born in Somalia. She is the object of death threats from Dutch Muslims. Since the murder of Theo Van Gogh on November 8, 2005, she has been under 24 hour police protection. Hirsi Ali describes herself as an "apostate" from Islam--that means she left the religion. In an interview published in last week's issue of the French weekly L'Express she said that: "Since the September 11 attacks, I no longer believe in God. In the eyes of the fundamentalists who threaten me, that justifies my being put to death. They accuse me of 'insulting' the Prophet, of saying that Islam oppresses women, of 'collaborating with the enemy', that's to say, with non-Muslims."

Although Hirsi Ali's break with Islam has been widely publicized, less publicized is her break with the "left". Originally, a member of the Dutch Labor Party, Hirsi Ali left it to join the VVD party. She told L'Express why:

"Because the left is exactly like the Muslims! I wanted to give priority to the defense of immigrant women who are victims of domestic violence. They said to me: "No, that's not a priority! The problem will take care of itself when the immigrants have jobs and are integrated." It is exactly what the Imams say who demand that we accept oppression and slavery today because tomorrow, in Heaven, God will give us dates and raisins.... I think we need first to defend the individual. The left is afraid of everything. But fear of giving offense leads to injustice and suffering. The sexual revolution, the affirmation of individual rights, improving the living conditions of immigrants - these were once the great causes of the Dutch left. In their eyes, the simple fact of belonging to a minority gives one the right to do anything. This multiculturalism is a disaster. All one has to do is scream "discrimination" and all doors are open to you! Scream 'racism' and your opponents shut up! But multiculturalism is an inconsistent theory. If one wants to let communities preserve their traditions, what happens when these traditions work to the detriment of women or homosexuals? The logic of multiculturalism amounts to accepting the subordination of women. Nonetheless, the defenders of multiculturalism do not want to admit it."



Comment #198: jp said on 5/25/05 @ 11:09am ET...

diana said on 5/25/05 @ 10:40am ET...

When will the fighting stop? Why can't we all just get along? The fighting will stop when the people realize that RELIGION is the reason for most wars.

__
Learn how to read: ATHEISTIC COMMUNISM HAS KILLED HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS PEOPLE MORE THAN ALL RELIGIOUS WARS COMBINED.



Comment #199: Goon said on 5/25/05 @ 11:13am ET...

And to you filty decieving AGENTS posting here I say YOUR TIME IS SHORT.You ARE being WATCHED.You WILL be EXPOSED.But we WONT visit the violence on you that agents in an ISLAMIC country would recieve ,you will get a fair hearing and only deportation.If Americans pulled the same crap in any islamic>>>>>>>>
(pretending to post as concerned citizens) <<<The FREE world did not become so prosperous by being the TOTAL fools that islamists think we are.
Your time is SHORT.



Comment #200: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 11:16am ET...

JP - well said, and Amen!

I would like to ask Sherry, ljm, Leslie, Doug, Ohiodem, newname, Kryten42, Reginald, paul, Vyan, Kira --etc, etc ad nauseam...

Do you think the "piss Christ" art FUNDED by the NEA was freedom of speech? And are you going to be okay with sharia?



Comment #201: Mike Jackman said on 5/25/05 @ 11:21am ET...

Why on earth would Con-yours have so much concern for a religion which is vehemently anti-American and anti-Judeo-Christian?

Why on earth would Con-yours defend countries which are vehemently anti-American and anti-Judeo-Christian?

Either Con-yours has been smoking too much wacky tobacky or is he's on their payroll



Comment #202: Avragejoe said on 5/25/05 @ 11:25am ET...

THIS IS WHAT AWAITS AMERICA with EVERY lameduck step this dhimmi John takes.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002936.php

Mr.Conyers when you read the entire Quran AND ALL the hadith ans Surahs you will find your life completely changed!! and you will have MY support 100 percent.You dont really need any more of thier islamic money do you? Take a sabbatical and study....PLEASE.



Comment #203: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:25am ET...

I heartily agree with the above resolution, for we should love and respect all people, even the bad ones.



Comment #204: Doc Ock said on 5/25/05 @ 11:27am ET...

Dear Goon,

If you are currently under the care of a physician, please inform him or her of your online essays; it could be a crucial part of your treatment plan.



Comment #205: ELRON said on 5/25/05 @ 11:34am ET...

I hope this resolution includes DIANETICS!



Comment #206: Heather said on 5/25/05 @ 11:34am ET...

Sean
None of what you say to me matters to me as long as you see me as the enemy of America.

To me YOU are the fringe group of humanity. Just because someone linked you guys up to this blog and there are more of you here than the unextreme "apologists" doesn't mean that that balance is reflected in the reality of the 'hard' world. If it did we would have all been obliterated long ago.

I will clear this up for you. duh:
Just as it is not all Muslims that bomb innocents, it is not all military that kill and maim in the name of Christ, and it is not all Christians that are intolerant of others. The numbers of EXTREME to true believers is small. It is that TRUE FRINGE, that EXTREME edge of each that is reacting to the actions of each. It is that EXTREME FRINGE that I accuse of running the war against Islam and against Christianity.

WHO are you defending again?



Comment #207: Goob said on 5/25/05 @ 11:36am ET...

LOVE and RESPECT *ALL* RELIGIONS?

AND IF I DON'T -- WHAT??

FINES AND IMPRISONMENT?



Comment #208: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 11:38am ET...

#203, John Jones:

"I heartily agree with the above resolution, for we should love and respect all people, even the bad ones."

That is a truly foolish statement. Do you love and respect (gasp! I'm going to say it!) Hitler? Stalin? Nicolai Ceaucescu? Mao? Bad people, but your anemic morality (read: apathetic immorality) means that you "love and respect" them (read: ignore their atrocities since they aren't directly aimed at you. Where is your love and respect for their victims?) You are a hypocrite of the highest caliber. When the jihadis drag you and your family out in the street with a scimitar to your neck, let's see how much love and respect you have for them.

Morality is this: standing up for what is RIGHT, and opposing what is WRONG, even when it doesn't have any effect on you. For you to "love and respect" murderous jihadis, you must "hate and disrespect" the victims of their rage. Don't pretend to be moral. You are an abomination, and a terrorism enabler.



Comment #209: Kevin Reese said on 5/25/05 @ 11:39am ET...

Dear Sir,
a book is a book. Its made from regular paper that comes from regular trees. What happened to freedom of speech? I'm also offended that the Bible was never mentioned.



Comment #210: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:40am ET...

<< Hitler? Stalin? Nicolai Ceaucescu? Mao?>>

These are not religious people.

You are the abomination, not me.



Comment #211: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 11:41am ET...

No, you are.



Comment #212: Heather said on 5/25/05 @ 11:42am ET...

This is stupid. I'm going outside.
I hope you all have a pleasant and long life that is filled with kindness from and to others.

What else is there in the end?
If you were here I'd fix you breakfast.
A late one but a delicious one.
You would love me.



Comment #213: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:42am ET...

Not I'm not -- YOU are.



Comment #214: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 11:44am ET...

#211 was posted by an imposter. Very mature for a moral midget.



Comment #215: I want Breakfast! said on 5/25/05 @ 11:45am ET...

Yummy, Heather.

Pancakes?



Comment #216: Heather said on 5/25/05 @ 11:47am ET...

and that, John Jones #213 should be the perfect ending to this thread. Maybe with a pfffft added.
Thanks for The giggle. I think I love you.

:)



Comment #217: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:47am ET...

#213 was also posted by an imposter.

But I think Beo is the abomination.

Jesus HATES Beo.



Comment #218: Goon said on 5/25/05 @ 11:48am ET...

What individuals who see any kind of common ground between Muslims and infidels fail to realize is that most of the adherants of western religions are backsliders and sinners.Whereas,a DANGEROUSLY LARGE portion of muslims are TRUE and STRONG in thier faith! they dont go to church on Sunday to socalize and what have you,... they TRULY BELEIVE and are Submiting to their god in any way they can.They are not messing around they are HARD AT WORK FOR ISLAM.no other religion is working so hard for thier deity as are the Muslims. this is dangerous for the planet earth in the extreme. If you dont know wherefore come thier belief system then you are poorly equipped to even BEGIN to see the deadly ramifications of even entertaining the SMALLEST of any demands they make from civilized peoplels ,nations,and states.



Comment #219: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:49am ET...

Email me!

I LOoOOoOve breakfast, too!



Comment #220: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 11:49am ET...

Heather - maybe you could answer the question?

Was the cross in a jar of piss funded by the NEA freedom of speech?



Comment #221: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 11:49am ET...

#217:

What, you mean you don't "love and respect" me?



Comment #222: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 11:50am ET...

Jones? Anyone care to answer?



Comment #223: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:53am ET...

I might love and respect you more if you made me breakfast like Heather.

Bacon & eggs, too.



Comment #224: Goon said on 5/25/05 @ 11:54am ET...

Please please i BEG of YOU , Read the quran the hadith AND the Surahs
then you will KNOW.WE are NOT the SAME .Please read it all.



Comment #225: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:55am ET...

Michelle,

I'd answer but I have no idea what you're talking about.



Comment #226: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 11:55am ET...

Come on, Jim Jones (er, I mean John Jones): love and respect me, or admit that I am right and you are a hypocrite. You've already proven my point. Logic sucks for you.



Comment #227: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 11:57am ET...

No, YOU suck.



Comment #228: Christopher Coleman said on 5/25/05 @ 11:57am ET...

Religious tolerance is an important value in this country, and one I would not see sacrificed, however, I am uncomfortable with any act of Congress that singles out for special attention any religion, especially Islam, at this delicate time.

Granted, this resolution does nothing concrete, but that is just another reason it should not have been submitted and should not be passed.



Comment #229: bluesman said on 5/25/05 @ 11:58am ET...

Well John, I just read through this shit storm again. I see no comment from you here.
Perhaps a... Sorry folks, I guess I really fucked up on this one is in order. By the way, Where is my freedom from religious persccution?



Comment #230: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 11:59am ET...

Yay! I win! Now that I've baited Jones out, everyone please compare post #203 with #227. Now that post #203 has been proven to be a lie by its originator, let's get back to discussing the idiocy of John Conyers' resolution.



Comment #231: Avragejoe said on 5/25/05 @ 12:01pm ET...

Ateqeh Sahaleh's fate might well be your granddaughters in the dim dark future created by those who want only peace with the adherants of ISLAM.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002936.php

peace is not an option.

Respectfully,Goon:vicious terrestrial biped,hammering away ineffectively at poor defenseless keyboard.

Heather i am so glad you posted.too much coffee and no food ,im off for PANCAKES!!! YUM thankyou and goodby



Comment #232: John Jones said on 5/25/05 @ 12:01pm ET...

227 was the imposter!



Comment #233: Heather said on 5/25/05 @ 12:03pm ET...

NO BEO. you're mean.

michelle

I don't know what you're talking about either, but I'm sure if it happened, it raised quite a few hairs. I assume that no one DIED over it.

See you all.



Comment #234: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:03pm ET...

1987 Freedom of Speech

2004 Losing that same freedom of speech

There is no RIGHT --to not be offended. Come on people. You would think the left would at least get that much~!



Comment #235: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:07pm ET...

Heather, of course no one died over it. We don't allow religious freaks to rule us.

I was offended, but I didn't go on a rampage and kill people. Should we have? So they are correct in doing this?

Check your hem chick - your cognitive dissonance is showing.



Comment #236: Carol said on 5/25/05 @ 12:08pm ET...

Way to pander to Islam, Mr. Conyers. What's next? Will you be introducing a bill to allow Shar'ia law in the US?



Comment #237: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 12:11pm ET...

#233: "NO BEO. you're mean"

The truth is harsh to those who prefer lies. My "meanness" involves confronting fallacious ideas and exposing them as such; the meanness of the jihadis involves cutting of the heads of people who refuse to submit to Islam.

Are you going to equate me to them in the same way you equated fundamentalist Christians to Muslim terrorists?

In your eyes, I am worse than a terrorist. They blow up people you don't know, but I have exposed your ideas for the fantasies they are.



Comment #238: Sharry A. Law said on 5/25/05 @ 12:13pm ET...

I think this resolution is STUPID!!!

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!!!



Comment #239: Moustafa Moustafa said on 5/25/05 @ 12:15pm ET...

The Taliban LOVE John Conyers!!



Comment #240: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 12:15pm ET...

Michelle,

"We don't allow religious freaks to rule us."

Checked up on Congress lately?



Comment #241: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 12:18pm ET...

Michelle again,
George Bush orders our soldiers to their death for a lie and in the same breath says his every move is dictated by God.



Comment #242: Lew Minooti said on 5/25/05 @ 12:20pm ET...

The Reptilians dictate that this resolution shall PASS to further their aims in the dominance of planet Earth.



Comment #243: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 12:21pm ET...

In a way, what I said in #237 is exactly what this resolution is about:

The notion that offense taken at my words is somehow more dangerous than the crime I condemn.

If I speak out against a crime, I am deemed to be intolerant; the person who commits the crime is now the victim. Thousands of Muslims abduct, rape, extort, terrorize, and murder anyone who doesn't believe like they do, but when I condemn these actions (which are mandated by their religion), I am considered intolerant. I suddenly become the bad guy.

That is the biggest perversion of all. Conyers, are you reading this?

The Quran is morally equivalent to Mein Kampf. Both call for the elimination of "the others" through whatever means necessary. The only difference is, people still take the Quran seriously enough to kill over it. Am I allowed to disrespect Mein Kampf, Herr Conyers?

Call me intolerant if you like. Truth is always intolerant of lies and hypocricy.

Conyers - you are committing political suicide if you continue this idiotic pursuit.



Comment #244: Reptilians for Conyers said on 5/25/05 @ 12:22pm ET...

He's our man!



Comment #245: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 12:24pm ET...

Michelle,

I read that it was the security forces not the protesters that did the killing in Afghanistan.
If that is what you refer to.



Comment #246: factual said on 5/25/05 @ 12:26pm ET...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050525/wl_nm/italy_fallaci_islam_dc_1&printer=1

Fallaci charged in Italy with defaming Islam By Crispian Balmer
Wed May 25, 8:13 AM ET

A judge has ordered best-selling writer and journalist Oriana Fallaci to stand trial in her native Italy on charges she defamed Islam in a recent book.

The decision angered Italy's justice minister but delighted Muslim activists, who accused Fallaci of inciting religious hatred in her 2004 work "La Forza della Ragione" (The Force of Reason).

Fallaci lives in New York and has regularly provoked the wrath of Muslims with her outspoken criticism of Islam following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on U.S. cities.

In "La Forza della Ragione," Fallaci wrote that terrorists had killed 6,000 people over the past 20 years in the name of the Koran and said the Islamic faith "sows hatred in the place of love and slavery in the place of freedom."

State prosecutors originally dismissed accusations of defamation from an Italian Muslim organization, and said Fallaci should not stand trial because she was merely exercising her right to freedom of speech.

But a preliminary judge in the northern Italian city of Bergamo, Armando Grasso, rejected the prosecutors advice at a hearing on Tuesday and said Fallaci should be indicted.

So when does your resolution get a hearing JC? Think about what you are doing.



Comment #247: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 12:34pm ET...

Dan
Me thinks you is spinnin and exageratin to fit you own views.



Comment #248: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:34pm ET...

I am refering to whoever thinks you can legislate "offensiveness".

Security forces did the killing because mobs attacked government and aid-organization offices. Are they suppose to let the mob rule and kill them all?

People want to ignore the question I raised earlier. Piss Christ is considered 'freedom of speech', but speak badly of the koran and you will be prosecuted?

In a nutshell- Christians need to shut up and take it when their religion is offended, but offend islam and its all "let's lock 'em up" Yeah. Makes complete sense.



Comment #249: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:38pm ET...

And last time I checked you can still get abortions on a whim (and georgie has been prez for 5 years), so if you think religious freaks are running congress you are a nut case.



Comment #250: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 12:40pm ET...

Sean 247

I read it in the paper. I saw it on Yahoo.
yahoo article

Perhaps you should listen to someone other that that flip flopper McClellan.



Comment #251: Harry Everett Smith said on 5/25/05 @ 12:40pm ET...

Michelle,

What is all this "p-ss" talk? In conjunction with the name of our lord? Your blasphemy will earn you a very HOT eternal reward in the afterlife!!



Comment #252: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 12:41pm ET...

Dan

I was reffering to your posts about Bush the Crusader...



Comment #253: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:44pm ET...

Harry- see comment #234

I didn't put a cross in a jar of "wee" (is that better?) and call it art.

But someone did. And the Christian right was told to shut the hell up and deal with it.

Muslims are calling for whoever put the koran in a toilet to be turned over to a sharia court so they can be tried and punished.

The Gulf Cooperation Council, a set of American allies, called for the “harshest punishment” so that “the dignity of Muslims” could be preserved.


Don't worry about my reward in the afterlife - worry about our lives right now in America.

Your freedoms are being taken away, and it doesn't seem to be a problem for some people.



Comment #254: Joshua Betts said on 5/25/05 @ 12:44pm ET...

We have the freedom to mock and be disrespectful any religion. This is the first step to dhimmitude. I have the right to say islam is a degenerate religion.

It's my RIGHT!



Comment #255: Cconstancy Chappell Miller said on 5/25/05 @ 12:46pm ET...

Mr. Conyers, in your effort to intitate a well-meaning and even-handed resolution, to assure religious freedom to Muslims, please do not forget the hndreds of millions of Christians and Jews in this country who are fighting to maintain the very rights that you are protecting for Muslins. Our bill of rights guarantees that the government shall not abridge the free expression of religion for any individual, with no caveat as to time, place, or manner.



Comment #256: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 12:46pm ET...

#251: Either you are a troll, or you simply don't get it. If you paid attention and borrowed a clue, you'd realize that she is opposed to the vile piece of "artistic" filth referred to as "piss Christ." If you don't know what that is, look it up and prepare to be truly offended.



Comment #257: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:47pm ET...

Waaatchit Joshua - you'll be termed a "hater"

(I hate people that want to kill me, and think they'll get drunk and deflower virgins in the afterlife for doing so -- so sue me)

If that's a hater, then I would have to say I am one.



Comment #258: HSM said on 5/25/05 @ 12:47pm ET...

Michelle --

You're a potty-mouth!

I wee-wee on your religion!

So there!



Comment #259: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 12:48pm ET...

Michelle,
You are not paying attention.
Conyers bill covers ALL religions. He named one among many, solely to settle down the spirits of those that are dying right now.

I think you enjoy the made up persecution.

For the record, and hopefully you will stop referring to it, I don't think this piss thing you refer to was very nice nor would I consider it art, nor would I consider it worthy of NEA funds.
It sounds like some one being extreme.



Comment #260: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 12:49pm ET...

#255: You are given him too much credit to assume that he is well-meaning and even-handed. He is politicizing and manipulative. He is operating under the false assumption that any press is good press.



Comment #261: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:50pm ET...

Okay, now who's going to prosecute #258???

Come on now-- he offended me!

hahahahaha



Comment #262: Joshua Betts said on 5/25/05 @ 12:50pm ET...

Anybody remember Beslan?

Anybody remember 9-11?

Islam is a degenerate religion and the prophet was a pedophile. That's my opinion and I have a right to it!



Comment #263: I Like Pee-pee said on 5/25/05 @ 12:51pm ET...

And I like this resolution!



Comment #264: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 12:58pm ET...

Dan - sorry, hon, but YOU are not paying attention.

Freedom of Speech?
Article I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Comment #265: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 1:11pm ET...

Just for the record, I worry about any law that might give power to the rise of Theocracy here in the U.S. Our government has been heading in that direction since the late 1970s.

Do any of you sane & rational posters see anything about this bill that indicates a potential backfiring in that direction?

Already the separation between church & state is being torn down by the evangelical neo-theo-cons and the jihad/holy war of bigotry and hate will only get worse. Just look at the 2 threads devoted to this subject.

Representative Conyers, Sir, is there any legitimate concern that this bill will serve Theocracy in any way?

TIA for any rational, sane responses.



Comment #266: frita said on 5/25/05 @ 1:11pm ET...

Rep. Conyers:

This is the most naive and anti Constitutional piece of legislation I have ever seen come out of Washington DC and it has your name written all over it.

I will be making sure my Catholic Church and my daughter in law's Synegogue get a copy of your "Resolution" to pass out to their congregation and members.

Have you ever heard of the BIBLE? So is it ok to flush one in your world or just the Koran?



Comment #267: istudythisstuff said on 5/25/05 @ 1:14pm ET...

Is this where you want us to go Mr. Conyers?:::

Esteemed writer and journalist Oriana Fallaci charged in Italy with defaming Islam
Wed May 25, 8:13 AM ET

A judge has ordered best-selling writer and journalist Oriana Fallaci to stand trial in her native Italy on charges she defamed Islam in a recent book.

The decision angered Italy's justice minister but delighted Muslim activists, who accused Fallaci of inciting religious hatred in her 2004 work "La Forza della Ragione" (The Force of Reason).

Fallaci lives in New York and has regularly provoked the wrath of Muslims with her outspoken criticism of Islam following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on U.S. cities.

In "La Forza della Ragione," Fallaci wrote that terrorists had killed 6,000 people over the past 20 years in the name of the Koran and said the Islamic faith "sows hatred in the place of love and slavery in the place of freedom."

A judge in the northern Italian city of Bergamo, Armando Grasso, said Fallaci should be indicted.



Comment #268: Doyle Smith said on 5/25/05 @ 1:20pm ET...

I want to make sure I understand this: Muslims deserve the freedom to practice their religion as they see fit, but I don't deserve the freedom to say that I disagree with the quran (ficticious ramblings of a psycho madman, Mohamed) I truly don't believe you're a stupid man, so please tell me why you would do this. I know that you've read the koran and you've studied Islam. You're smart enough to know the truth about Isalm. You know this "religion" is based on the idea of taking over the world. You see what's happening in Europe with Islamic laws and tolerance. You are an educated man with endless resources. Please don't insult the rest of us by acting like you think this is a good idea for the country. Please tell us the secret behind all the Islamic tolerance. I know you don't think that if we're nice enough, the Muslims will accept Westerners or Jews. They all (even the "peaceful Muslims"--or sleeper agents as they should be called) have a hate for America that we will never understand or change. I know you know this. What's driving you to do this?



Comment #269: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 1:24pm ET...

9/11 has never been investigated honestly by our government.



Comment #270: Barry said on 5/25/05 @ 1:27pm ET...

This is terrible, how dare that you suggest to block our right to expression and speech. For a congressman to say that our right of speech should be blocked is a shame. We have the right to demonstrate and burn flags, we have the right to put religious objects in urine and cow dong. Now you say that we no longer have these rights because it is the Koran.

Shame on you.



Comment #271: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 1:27pm ET...

Osama said he did it Kira. What else do you need?



Comment #272: michelle said on 5/25/05 @ 1:30pm ET...

They even HONOR the hijackers.



Comment #273: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 1:32pm ET...

Kira

Waht the hell else do you need to know? It was all caught on tape. I read the 911 Commission report from cover to cover , I would say that was a very thorough investigation of the incidents leading up to the horrific day. the commision goes as far back ast the bombings in Beirut.



Comment #274: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 1:32pm ET...

After reading the bit of sanity Kira brought back to the thread I am in a state of doubt about the wiseness of this resolution.
I understand its meaning and the timing, and I appreciate the nature of it in that regard, but I'm now unsure of the fairness of it towards those that do not belong to any religion at all.



Comment #275: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 1:32pm ET...

Kira

Waht the hell else do you need to know? It was all caught on tape. I read the 911 Commission report from cover to cover , I would say that was a very thorough investigation of the incidents leading up to the horrific day. the commision goes as far back as the bombings in Beirut.



Comment #276: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 1:37pm ET...

Sean
The 9/11 commission report was a farce from the start.



Comment #277: F15C said on 5/25/05 @ 1:38pm ET...

To all those who want to experience Islamic tolerance. I suggest you to Saudi Arabia, go out on a public street and declare that you are Christian and start talking about how Jesus saves. You will receive a quite graphic lesson on just how tolerant Islam is of other religions.

I then suggest a trip to Indonesia. There you should exercise your inalienable right of free speech and ask some rather benign questions (just out of curiosity) regarding sharia practices. I'd suggest asking about the practice of so called 'honor killings'. If you don't know what those are, google the term, it is all too common. Your questions will result in yet another graphic lesson in Muslim tolerance.

If you survive, when you are released from prison, I suggest you then go to Pakistan, take a copy of the Koran and hold it over your head in your left hand without saying a word. You will receive yet another graphic and clear lesson on the tolerance of Islam. You, by decree of Pakistani law, will be put to death for your crime.

There are no Christian equivalents to these examples, nor are their Jewish equivalents. Even Satanists are more tolerant. How many Satanists have rioted and killed people and resorted to terrorism in 'support' of their religion?

Go to the Vatican and wipe your behind with a Christian bible. Prepare yourself: It will not result in riots and death - yours included. You may exchange harsh words with some fellow visitors, but the establishment of that religion will not prosecute or persecute you. Their belief system tells them the issue will be dealth with between you and God, resulting in what? Human tolerance.

The fact is that while Islam may have roots that are peaceful (I honestly don't know), the way it is *practiced* today by all too many is far from tolerant and peaceful. And, if there is a 'peaceful and tolerant' majority in Islam, then they must be afraid of the radicals as it is their responsibility to deliver Islam from its radical elements and that is not happening as far as I can tell. Radical wahhabi style Islam is growing. And no, it is not the fault of the US, George Bush, and Haliburton. It is the fault of the individuals that practice radical Islam and their leaders - no one else.

As the gentleman from Al Jazeera said (paraphrasing), 'while not all Muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists today are Muslims'. He would know...



Comment #278: barry said on 5/25/05 @ 1:42pm ET...

This is NOT an issue about Muslims, it IS an issue of freedom of speech.



Comment #279: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 1:43pm ET...

Dan

That is just silly. You have some substantive proof to the contrary of what the commision reported?



Comment #280: newname said on 5/25/05 @ 1:44pm ET...

We're still going on this, huh?

As a former Catholic, I know what it feels like to be told I'm following a "false" religion. The first time I was told I was going to hell, I was 5 years old. What had I done? I thought I was a good kid. But no, apparently being good isn't enough to get me to Heaven, I was supposed to ALSO be a Baptist. Damn my mother for having me baptised before I was old enough to slap some sense into her.

Muslims are obviously not respected in this country...perhaps that was the whole idea behind Rep Conyers resolution?? Some of you above posters strike me as capable of violence against the dude that works at the corner gas station, who happens to be Muslim. This resolution is not about putting any religion above any other, it's about PROTECTING the people that you all want to see suffer.

Christians have a lot of money to throw at politicians, who then make laws that govern us all. Some of those laws are based on the Bible. I'm not aware of any Muslims in any high public office, and if there's a Muslim PAC, they haven't emailed me or asked for any money.

How many Americans have been beheaded IN AMERICA?? How many of you even knew that beheading was the execution of choice in the Middle East BEFORE we invaded Iraq? How many Americans would NOT have been beheaded, had Bush listened to the people who tried to warn him of what an invasion would do?

On 9/11/2001, our enemy was Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida. Thanks to the Bush administration, our enemy is now the entire Muslim world. It's obvious that it's getting worse, and we may have passed the point of no return.

I'm not an Islamic apologist. I'm simply hoping for way to let the Arab world know that not all Americans want them dead. Let them know that they are free to believe what they believe, and that we can still get along and work together. I'm hoping to avoid having my sons drafted and blown apart. I'm hoping Americans will start to TRY to play nice with others, instead of bombing innocents and giving their jobs to Haliburton.

Ok, now you can all tell me I'm blind, not paying attention, or that I've got my head up my ass. I know you will.



Comment #281: barry said on 5/25/05 @ 1:44pm ET...

If a Neocon cam up with a similar Bill we would be screaming about Freedom of Speech. If a Neocon said that we do not have the right to burn the flag, it would be wrong. Stop this now!



Comment #282: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 1:48pm ET...

I've been reading quotations by some very wise people and thought I'd share them with everybody.

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

"It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own." Thomas Jefferson April 21, 1803

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself."
Sir Richard Francis Burton
British explorer & orientalist (1821 - 1890)

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 - )

"The Roots of Violence: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, Politics without principles." Ghandi

"The most heinous and the most cruel crimes of which history has record have been committed under the cover of religion or equally noble motives." Ghandi

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing... in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret..." ~ Jesus

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, ... legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion, but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law." ~ Thomas Paine

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." ~ Jesus



Comment #283: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 2:03pm ET...

Kira, your selection of quotations is fine, however, in this country we stilll have freedom of speech and I want to keep it so that I can call mohamed aDOG BUTT SUCKING SWINE, if I am so inclined, and so that I can go and use pages from my copy of the koran to pick up my dog's droppings *Gotta keep a clean park when I walk the dog* and can blow my nose on the filthy verses of the koran, and even wrap bacon with a page from the koran.... Makes a pretty koran "candle".. the ink that burns even makes nice colors... Much more useful than the filth that is written in that piece of SH*T book.

I should be able to burn the koran or use it for a door mat, without having to worry about politically correct speech issues.

BTW your posts are desultry in nature on occasion as well....

curious how the worm turns. LOL

Regards Dhimmi Kira



Comment #284: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 2:08pm ET...

Funny. Ed B. is so different from all the Canadians I've had the pleasure of knowing. Hopefully he is part of a small minority fringe.



Comment #285: polly mathic said on 5/25/05 @ 2:09pm ET...

"..it is worthwhile for the Congress to actually express its support for the freedom of religion."

Sorry Congressman, but I think it would be more worthwhile for you to focus on the war and your job. The expression of support for the freedom of religion is in the First Amendment ok?

"To the extent it mentions the Quran and Islam specifically, that is obviously to respond to those who believe our nation would tolerate disrespect of that religion or its holy book. Clearly we should not..."

Sorry again Congressman, but that same Admendment pretty much tells us that we have to tolerate disrespect to religion. Stop being a useful idiot and wake up! This is the USA man, if someone wants to trash a religion, that is his or her right. God what a stupid resolution. How do people like you get elected to office?



Comment #286: polly mathic said on 5/25/05 @ 2:11pm ET...

#9 Paul said: "Jeff, I don't see how Conyer's resolution is in any way an advocacy for Islam or for the Koran."

Maybe that's because you are not thinking about it hard enough Paulie.



Comment #287: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 2:12pm ET...

Maybe you reserve the right to "trash a religion," but it will only serve to incite anger and violence.

You who espouse hate really should spend more of your time reflecting on how to make life better for yourselves and others.



Comment #288: F15C said on 5/25/05 @ 2:12pm ET...

newname wrote: "This resolution is not about putting any religion above any other, it's about PROTECTING the people that you all want to see suffer."

No one in their right mind wants Muslims to suffer. You are creating a very lame strawman and you know it. It is not wrong to protect life and country against those who would destroy both. Anyone who wants to kill my family, friends or fellow Americans of any religion should indeed die instantly, but if they suffer on the way that is ok too.

You said in the same post "our enemy is now the entire Muslim world". If they are our enemy, then should we be 'protecting' them? Your post makes no sense.

I do not agree with your overly generalizing statement about 'the entire Muslim world' being our enemy. That is airhead hyperbole at its most lame. Our enemy - as it was long before 9/11 - is the radical element of the Muslim world and those who support them in any way, shape, or form. (As an aside, you do know that that element is actually far more efficient at killing other Muslims than Americans don't you?)

So, the question: Does this resolution "protect" (to use your word) practioners of radical Islam? If so, why?



Comment #289: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 2:17pm ET...

#280: "Ok, now you can all tell me I'm blind, not paying attention, or that I've got my head up my ass. I know you will."

Well, they say the first step towards getting better is to admit that you have a problem.

When you pass an edict singling out one specific group, you are granting special privilege and protection. Do we need a law that says specifically that we cannot murder Muslims? No, we have a law that says we cannot murder PEOPLE. Do we need a law protecting religious freedoms for Muslims? No, we have a law protecting religious freedoms for EVERYONE.

So this is either:


  • A pointless piece of legislation
  • A deliberate attempt to grant Muslims special protection


Either way, it is at best a waste of time and at worst an abhorrent violation of our Constitution, just like all "hate crime" laws.

The next step after hate crime laws is thought police.

Don't believe me? (Of couse you don't) Try these:

http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20050407-095608-3316r.htm

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=15799_Pastor-_No_Apology_to_Muslims&only=yes

We've already seen the moonbats' responses to truth - they try to discredit the source, like the clowns that think there is a grand conspiracy to cover up the "truth" about 9/11, or that think the Al Qaeda had nothing to do with it. "The 9/11 commission is a lie!" etc. etc. What do you do when confronted with overwhelming evidence that you are wrong? Deny that the overwhelming evidence even exists, then go back to your fantastic world of make believe! They have no evidence to contradict reality, they only stuff their heads in the ground, or as "newname" prefers, elsewhere.



Comment #290: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 2:25pm ET...

#287: "Maybe you reserve the right to 'trash a religion,' but it will only serve to incite anger and violence."

And in your warped little mind, I suppose *I* would be responsible for the violence rather than the one who is "incited"?

See, I've already been insulted repeatedly here. I have not killed anyone over it, nor do I plan to. I'm not even angry about it. Pretty tolerant, aren't I? But if Muslims get offended at a news story that has been proven false, and they riot and kill 16 people, whose fault is that? Mine? Newsweek's? No. It is THEIR fault. My speech is not the problem. Newsweek's idiotic irresponsible journalism is NOT the problem. The Quran and its practitioners are the problem. It says to kill; they kill.

I will speak out against that. Why won't you? You'd rather speak out against me speaking out.



Comment #291: polly mathic said on 5/25/05 @ 2:27pm ET...

#287 Kira:

No Kira, I don't reserve that right, the Constitution does. Agreed?

And who is espousing hate? I'm sticking up for the free speech that is guaranteed to me in the Constitution. Stop your knee-jerk leftist rhetoric and take a think about what you are advocating.

If you don't like the way the First Amendment reads, go persuade 3/4 of the country to make an update.



Comment #292: stephen said on 5/25/05 @ 2:32pm ET...

#287 Kira:
If you can prove that telling the truth about Islam is trashing it I will cease to trash it.



Comment #293: Reginald de Curry said on 5/25/05 @ 2:33pm ET...

#280 - newname

Damn good post. I'll hazard a guess that you're not blind, you are paying attention, and if your head's up your ass then it hasn't hurt your point of view.

Er...you know what I mean.

#282 - Kira

Excellent quotes; keep 'em coming!



Comment #294: RickZ said on 5/25/05 @ 2:35pm ET...

Rep. Conyers, my father and uncles, immigrants all, fought for the Constitution and the flag of the United States in World War II. My brother served in the early '60's. You are now proposing, through this completely ridiculous puff piece of a resolution, to spit on their service to this country. Not only that, but you are denigrating the risks they survived when they destroyed the evil they faced and which they fought so hard in order to protect us. While I cannot call you an overt traitor, I can call the gibberish in your resolution stunningly un-American. You spit on the memory of all who have fought and died to protect this Noble Experiment, selling their hallowed memory for a few bucks from those who would seek to destroy that which I hold dear and sacred: My Freedom!

Get a clue, Mr. Conyers. Stop listening to the taqqiya whispered so lovingly in your ear by the jihadi propagandists. Read the koran yourself. Maybe then the actual words of the enemy might seep into your thick, dhimmified skull.

God protect our great Nation from the likes of you, Mr. Conyers. You have been cheaply bought. I will not allow you, nor any other elected idiot, to sell out my birthright for such a 'feel-good' resolution. There are some still Americans in this great Nation, the Beacon of Freedom, who are made of sterner stuff than you could ever be even in your most vivid dreams.



Comment #295: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 2:36pm ET...

Well, Beo #289, many intelligent people have presented a very convincing argument to your last paragraph.

Here's one:

The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie

by Dr. David Ray Griffin
Sunday, May 22, 2005

In discussing my second 9/11 book, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, I have often said, only half in jest, that a better title might have been "a 571-page lie." (Actually, I was saying "a 567-page lie," because I was forgetting to count the four pages of the Preface.) In making this statement, one of my points has been that the entire Report is constructed in support of one big lie: that the official story about 9/11 is true.

Another point, however, is that in the process of telling this overall lie, The 9/11 Commission Report tells many lies about particular issues. This point is implied by my critique's subtitle, "Omissions and Distortions." It might be thought, to be sure, that of the two types of problems signaled by those two terms, only those designated "distortions" can be considered lies.

It is better, however, to understand the two terms as referring to two types of lies: implicit and explicit. We have an explicit lie when the Report claims that the core of each of the Twin Towers consisted of a hollow steel shaft or when it claims that Vice President Cheney did not give the shoot-down order until after 10:10 that morning. But we have an implicit lie when the Commission, in its discussion of the 19 alleged suicide hijackers, omits the fact that at least six of them have credibly been reported to be still alive, or when it fails to mention the fact that Building 7 of the World Trade Center collapsed. Such omissions are implicit lies partly because they show that the Commission did not honor its stated intention "to provide the fullest possible account of the events surrounding 9/11." They are also lies insofar as the Commission could avoid telling an explicit lie about the issue in question only by not mentioning it, which, I believe, was the case in at least most instances.

Given these two types of lies, it might be wondered how many lies are contained in The 9/11 Commission Report. I do not know. But, deciding to see how many lies I had discussed in my book, I found that I had identified over 100 of them. Once I had made the list, it occurred to me that others might find this summary helpful. Hence this article.

One caveat: Although in some of the cases it is obvious that the Commission has lied, in other cases I would say, as I make clear in the book, that it appears that the Commission has lied. However, in the interests of simply giving a brief listing of claims that I consider to be lies, I will ignore this distinction between obvious and probable lies, leaving it to readers, if they wish, to look up the discussion in The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions. For ease in doing this, I have parenthetically indicated the pages of the book on which the various issues are discussed.

Given this clarification, I now list the omissions and claims of The 9/11 Commission Report that I, in my critique of that report, portrayed as lies:

1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers---including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC---are still alive (19-20).

2. The omission of evidence about Mohamed Atta---such as his reported fondness for alcohol, pork, and lap dances---that is in tension with the Commission's claim that he had become fanatically religious (20-21).

3. The obfuscation of the evidence that Hani Hanjour was too poor a pilot to have flown an airliner into the Pentagon (21-22).

4. The omission of the fact that the publicly released flight manifests contain no Arab names (23).

5. The omission of the fact that fire has never, before or after 9/11, caused steel-frame buildings to collapse (25).

6. The omission of the fact that the fires in the Twin Towers were not very big, very hot, or very long-lasting compared with fires in several steel-frame buildings that did not collapse (25-26).

7. The omission of the fact that, given the hypothesis that the collapses were caused by fire, the South Tower, which was struck later than the North Tower and also had smaller fires, should not have collapsed first (26).

8. The omission of the fact that WTC 7 (which was not hit by an airplane and which had only small, localized fires) also collapsed---an occurrence that FEMA admitted it could not explain (26).

9. The omission of the fact that the collapse of the Twin Towers (like that of Building 7) exemplified at least 10 features suggestive of controlled demolition (26-27).

10. The claim that the core of each of the Twin Towers was "a hollow steel shaft"---a claim that denied the existence of the 47 massive steel columns that in reality constituted the core of each tower and that, given the "pancake theory" of the collapses, should have still been sticking up many hundreds of feet in the air (27-28).

11. The omission of Larry Silverstein's statement that he and the fire department commander decided to "pull" Building 7 (28).

12. The omission of the fact that the steel from the WTC buildings was quickly removed from the crime scene and shipped overseas before it could be analyzed for evidence of explosives (30).

13. The omission of the fact that because Building 7 had been evacuated before it collapsed, the official reason for the rapid removal of the steel---that some people might still be alive in the rubble under the steel---made no sense in this case (30).

14. The omission of Mayor Giuliani's statement that he had received word that the World Trade Center was going to collapse (30-31).

15. The omission of the fact that President Bush's brother Marvin and his cousin Wirt Walker III were both principals in the company in charge of security for the WTC (31-32).

16. The omission of the fact that the west wing of the Pentagon would have been the least likely spot to be targeted by al-Qaeda terrorists, for several reasons (33-34).

17. The omission of any discussion of whether the damage done to the Pentagon was consistent with the impact of a Boeing 757 going several hundred miles per hour (34).

18. The omission of the fact that there are photos showing that the west wing's façade did not collapse until 30 minutes after the strike and also that the entrance hole appears too small for a Boeing 757 to have entered (34).

19. The omission of all testimony that has been used to cast doubt on whether remains of a Boeing 757 were visible either inside or outside the Pentagon (34-36).

20. The omission of any discussion of whether the Pentagon has a anti-missile defense system that would have brought down a commercial airliner---even though the Commission suggested that the al-Qaeda terrorists did not attack a nuclear power plant because they assumed that it would be thus defended (36).

21. The omission of the fact that pictures from various security cameras---including the camera at the gas station across from the Pentagon, the film from which was reportedly confiscated by the FBI immediately after the strike---could presumably answer the question of what really hit the Pentagon (37-38).

22. The omission of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's reference to "the missile [used] to damage [the Pentagon]" (39).

23. The apparent endorsement of a wholly unsatisfactory answer to the question of why the Secret Service agents allowed President Bush to remain at the Sarasota school at a time when, given the official story, they should have assumed that a hijacked airliner might be about to crash into the school (41-44).

24. The failure to explore why the Secret Service did not summon fighter jets to provide air cover for Air Force One (43-46).

25. The claims that when the presidential party arrived at the school, no one in the party knew that several planes had been hijacked (47-48).

26. The omission of the report that Attorney General Ashcroft was warned to stop using commercial airlines prior to 9/11 (50).

27. The omission of David Schippers' claim that he had, on the basis of information provided by FBI agents about upcoming attacks in lower Manhattan, tried unsuccessfully to convey this information to Attorney General Ashcroft during the six weeks prior to 9/11 (51).

28. The omission of any mention of the FBI agents who reportedly claimed to have known the targets and dates of the attacks well in advance (51-52).

29. The claim, by means of a circular, question-begging rebuttal, that the unusual purchases of put options prior to 9/11 did not imply advance knowledge of the attacks on the part of the buyers (52-57).

30. The omission of reports that both Mayor Willie Brown and some Pentagon officials received warnings about flying on 9/11 (57).

31. The omission of the report that Osama bin Laden, who already was America's "most wanted" criminal, was treated in July 2001 by an American doctor in the American Hospital in Dubai and visited by the local CIA agent (59).

32. The omission of news stories suggesting that after 9/11 the US military in Afghanistan deliberately allowed Osama bin Laden to escape (60).

33. The omission of reports, including the report of a visit to Osama bin Laden at the hospital in Dubai by the head of Saudi intelligence, that were in tension with the official portrayal of Osama as disowned by his family and his country (60-61).

34. The omission of Gerald Posner's account of Abu Zubaydah's testimony, according to which three members of the Saudi royal family---all of whom later died mysteriously within an eight-day period---were funding al-Qaeda and had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks (61-65).

35. The Commission's denial that it found any evidence of Saudi funding of al-Qaeda (65-68).

36. The Commission's denial in particular that it found any evidence that money from Prince Bandar's wife, Princess Haifa, went to al-Qaeda operatives (69-70).

37. The denial, by means of simply ignoring the distinction between private and commercial flights, that the private flight carrying Saudis from Tampa to Lexington on September 13 violated the rules for US airspace in effect at the time (71-76).

38. The denial that any Saudis were allowed to leave the United States shortly after 9/11 without being adequately investigated (76-82).

39. The omission of evidence that Prince Bandar obtained special permission from the White House for the Saudi flights (82-86).

40. The omission of Coleen Rowley's claim that some officials at FBI headquarters did see the memo from Phoenix agent Kenneth Williams (89-90).

41. The omission of Chicago FBI agent Robert Wright's charge that FBI headquarters closed his case on a terrorist cell, then used intimidation to prevent him from publishing a book reporting his experiences (91).

42. The omission of evidence that FBI headquarters sabotaged the attempt by Coleen Rowley and other Minneapolis agents to obtain a warrant to search Zacarias Moussaoui's computer (91-94).

43. The omission of the 3.5 hours of testimony to the Commission by former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds—-testimony that, according to her later public letter to Chairman Kean, revealed serious 9/11-related cover-ups by officials at FBI headquarters (94-101).

44. The omission of the fact that General Mahmoud Ahmad, the head of Pakistan's intelligence agency (the ISI), was in Washington the week prior to 9/11, meeting with CIA chief George Tenet and other US officials (103-04).

45. The omission of evidence that ISI chief Ahmad had ordered $100,000 to be sent to Mohamed Atta prior to 9/11 (104-07).

46. The Commission's claim that it found no evidence that any foreign government, including Pakistan, had provided funding for the al-Qaeda operatives (106).

47. The omission of the report that the Bush administration pressured Pakistan to dismiss Ahmad as ISI chief after the appearance of the story that he had ordered ISI money sent to Atta (107-09).

48. The omission of evidence that the ISI (and not merely al-Qaeda) was behind the assassination of Ahmad Shah Masood (the leader of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance), which occurred just after the week-long meeting between the heads of the CIA and the ISI (110-112).

49. The omission of evidence of ISI involvement in the kidnapping and murder of Wall Street Reporter Daniel Pearl (113).

50. The omission of Gerald Posner's report that Abu Zubaydah claimed that a Pakistani military officer, Mushaf Ali Mir, was closely connected to both the ISI and al-Qaeda and had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks (114).

51. The omission of the 1999 prediction by ISI agent Rajaa Gulum Abbas that the Twin Towers would be "coming down" (114).

52. The omission of the fact that President Bush and other members of his administration repeatedly spoke of the 9/11 attacks as "opportunities" (116-17).

53. The omission of the fact that The Project for the New American Century, many members of which became key figures in the Bush administration, published a document in 2000 saying that "a new Pearl Harbor" would aid its goal of obtaining funding for a rapid technological transformation of the US military (117-18).

54. The omission of the fact that Donald Rumsfeld, who as head of the commission on the US Space Command had recommended increased funding for it, used the attacks of 9/11 on that very evening to secure such funding (119-22).

55. The failure to mention the fact that three of the men who presided over the failure to prevent the 9/11 attacks—-Secretary Rumsfeld, General Richard Myers, and General Ralph Eberhart---were also three of the strongest advocates for the US Space Command (122).

56. The omission of the fact that Unocal had declared that the Taliban could not provide adequate security for it to go ahead with its oil-and-gas pipeline from the Caspian region through Afghanistan and Pakistan (122-25).

57. The omission of the report that at a meeting in July 2001, US representatives said that because the Taliban refused to agree to a US proposal that would allow the pipeline project to go forward, a war against them would begin by October (125-26).

58. The omission of the fact that Zbigniew Brzezinski in his 1997 book had said that for the United States to maintain global primacy, it needed to gain control of Central Asia, with its vast petroleum reserves, and that a new Pearl Harbor would be helpful in getting the US public to support this imperial effort (127-28).

59. The omission of evidence that some key members of the Bush administration, including Donald Rumsfeld and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz, had been agitating for a war with Iraq for many years (129-33).

60. The omission of notes of Rumsfeld's conversations on 9/11 showing that he was determined to use the attacks as a pretext for a war with Iraq (131-32).

61. The omission of the statement by the Project for the New American Century that "the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein" (133-34).

62. The claim that FAA protocol on 9/11 required the time-consuming process of going through several steps in the chain of command--even though the Report cites evidence to the contrary (158).

63. The claim that in those days there were only two air force bases in NORAD's Northeast sector that kept fighters on alert and that, in particular, there were no fighters on alert at either McGuire or Andrews (159-162).

64. The omission of evidence that Andrews Air Force Base did keep several fighters on alert at all times (162-64).

65. The acceptance of the twofold claim that Colonel Marr of NEADS had to telephone a superior to get permission to have fighters scrambled from Otis and that this call required eight minutes (165-66).

66. The endorsement of the claim that the loss of an airplane's transponder signal makes it virtually impossible for the US military's radar to track that plane (166-67).

67. The claim that the Payne Stewart interception did not show NORAD's response time to Flight 11 to be extraordinarily slow (167-69).

68. The claim that the Otis fighters were not airborne until seven minutes after they received the scramble order because they did not know where to go (174-75).

69. The claim that the US military did not know about the hijacking of Flight 175 until 9:03, when it was crashing into the South Tower (181-82).

70. The omission of any explanation of (a) why NORAD's earlier report, according to which the FAA had notified the military about the hijacking of Flight 175 at 8:43, was now to be considered false and (b) how this report, if it was false, could have been published and then left uncorrected for almost three years (182).

71. The claim that the FAA did not set up a teleconference until 9:20 that morning (183).

72. The omission of the fact that a memo by Laura Brown of the FAA says that its teleconference was established at about 8:50 and that it included discussion of Flight 175's hijacking (183-84, 186).

73. The claim that the NMCC teleconference did not begin until 9:29 (186-88).

74. The omission, in the Commission's claim that Flight 77 did not deviate from its course until 8:54, of the fact that earlier reports had said 8:46 (189-90).

75. The failure to mention that the report that a large jet had crashed in Kentucky, at about the time Flight 77 disappeared from FAA radar, was taken seriously enough by the heads of the FAA and the FBI's counterterrorism unit to be relayed to the White House (190).

76. The claim that Flight 77 flew almost 40 minutes through American airspace towards Washington without being detected by the military's radar (191-92).

77. The failure to explain, if NORAD's earlier report that it was notified about Flight 77 at 9:24 was "incorrect," how this erroneous report could have arisen, i.e., whether NORAD officials had been lying or simply confused for almost three years (192-93).

78. The claim that the Langley fighter jets, which NORAD had previously said were scrambled to intercept Flight 77, were actually scrambled in response to an erroneous report from an (unidentified) FAA controller at 9:21 that Flight 11 was still up and was headed towards Washington (193-99).

79. The claim that the military did not hear from the FAA about the probable hijacking of Flight 77 before the Pentagon was struck (204-12).

80. The claim that Jane Garvey did not join Richard Clarke's videoconference until 9:40, after the Pentagon was struck (210).

81. The claim that none of the teleconferences succeeded in coordinating the FAA and military responses to the hijackings because "none of [them] included the right officials from both the FAA and the Defense Department"---although Richard Clarke says that his videoconference included FAA head Jane Garvey as well as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, the acting chair of the joint chiefs of staff (211).

82. The Commission's claim that it did not know who from the Defense Department participated in Clarke's videoconference---although Clarke's book said that it was Donald Rumsfeld and General Myers (211-212).

83. The endorsement of General Myers' claim that he was on Capitol Hill during the attacks, without mentioning Richard Clarke's contradictory account, according to which Myers was in the Pentagon participating in Clarke's videoconference (213-17).

84. The failure to mention the contradiction between Clarke's account of Rumsfeld's whereabouts that morning and Rumsfeld's own accounts (217-19).

85. The omission of Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's testimony, given to the Commission itself, that Vice-President Cheney and others in the underground shelter were aware by 9:26 that an aircraft was approaching the Pentagon (220).

86. The claim that Pentagon officials did not know about an aircraft approaching Pentagon until 9:32, 9:34, or 9:36---in any case, only a few minutes before the building was hit (223).

87. The endorsement of two contradictory stories about the aircraft that hit the Pentagon---one in which it executed a 330-degree downward spiral (a "high-speed dive") and another in which there is no mention of this maneuver (222-23).

88. The claim that the fighter jets from Langley, which were allegedly scrambled to protect Washington from "Phantom Flight 11," were nowhere near Washington because they were mistakenly sent out to sea (223-24).

89. The omission of all the evidence suggesting that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was not Flight 77 (224-25).

90. The claim that the military was not notified by the FAA about Flight 93's hijacking until after it crashed (227-29, 232, 253).

91. The twofold claim that the NMCC did not monitor the FAA-initiated conference and then was unable to get the FAA connected to the NMCC-initiated teleconference (230-31).

92. The omission of the fact that the Secret Service is able to know everything that the FAA knows (233).

93. The omission of any inquiry into why the NMCC initiated its own teleconference if, as Laura Brown of the FAA has said, this is not standard protocol (234).

94. The omission of any exploration of why General Montague Winfield not only had a rookie (Captain Leidig) take over his role as the NMCC's Director of Operations but also left him in charge after it was clear that the Pentagon was facing an unprecedented crisis (235-36).

95. The claim that the FAA (falsely) notified the Secret Service between 10:10 and 10:15 that Flight 93 was still up and headed towards Washington (237).

96. The claim that Vice President Cheney did not give the shoot-down authorization until after 10:10 (several minutes after Flight 93 had crashed) and that this authorization was not transmitted to the US military until 10:31 (237-41).

97. The omission of all the evidence indicating that Flight 93 was shot down by a military plane (238-39, 252-53).

98. The claim that Richard Clarke did not receive the requested shoot-down authorization until 10:25 (240).

99. The omission of Clarke's own testimony, which suggests that he received the shoot-down authorization by 9:50 (240).

100. The claim that Cheney did not reach the underground shelter (the PEOC [Presidential Emergency Operations Center]) until 9:58 (241-44).

101. The omission of multiple testimony, including that of Norman Mineta to the Commission itself, that Cheney was in the PEOC before 9:20 (241-44).

102. The claim that shoot-down authorization must be given by the president (245).

103. The omission of reports that Colonel Marr ordered a shoot-down of Flight 93 and that General Winfield indicated that he and others at the NMCC had expected a fighter jet to reach Flight 93 (252).

104. The omission of reports that there were two fighter jets in the air a few miles from NYC and three of them only 200 miles from Washington (251).

105. The omission of evidence that there were at least six bases with fighters on alert in the northeastern part of the United States (257-58).

106. The endorsement of General Myers' claim that NORAD had defined its mission in terms of defending only against threats from abroad (258-62).

107. The endorsement of General Myers' claim that NORAD had not recognized the possibility that terrorists might use hijacked airliners as missiles (262-63).

108. The failure to highlight the significance of evidence presented in the Report itself, and to mention other evidence, showing that NORAD had indeed recognized the threat that hijacked airliners might be used as missiles (264-67).

109. The failure to probe the issue of how the "war games" scheduled for that day were related to the military's failure to intercept the hijacked airliners (268-69).

110. The failure to discuss the possible relevance of Operation Northwoods to the attacks of 9/11 (269-71).

111. The claim---made in explaining why the military did not get information about the hijackings in time to intercept them---that FAA personnel inexplicably failed to follow standard procedures some 16 times (155-56, 157, 179, 180, 181, 190, 191, 193, 194, 200, 202-03, 227, 237, 272-75).

112. The failure to point out that the Commission's claimed "independence" was fatally compromised by the fact that its executive director, Philip Zelikow, was virtually a member of the Bush administration (7-9, 11-12, 282-84).

113. The failure to point out that the White House first sought to prevent the creation of a 9/11 Commission, then placed many obstacles in its path, including giving it extremely meager funding (283-85).

114. The failure to point out that the Commission's chairman, most of the other commissioners, and at least half of the staff had serious conflicts of interest (285-90, 292-95).

115. The failure of the Commission, while bragging that it presented its final report "without dissent," to point out that this was probably possible only because Max Cleland, the commissioner who was most critical of the White House and swore that he would not be part of "looking at information only partially," had to resign in order to accept a position with the Export-Import Bank, and that the White House forwarded his nomination for this position only after he was becoming quite outspoken in his criticisms (290-291).

I will close by pointing out that I concluded my study of what I came to call "the Kean-Zelikow Report" by writing that it, "far from lessening my suspicions about official complicity, has served to confirm them. Why would the minds in charge of this final report engage in such deception if they were not trying to cover up very high crimes?" (291)



Comment #296: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 2:39pm ET...

We'd have to change a lot of laws here to make America truly "Islam friendly."

* Our anti-bigamy laws might offend Muslim men who have multiple wives. We should immediately repeal those insensitive laws.

* Since one of Mohammed's wives was 12 year old girl, we must also legalize pedophilia. It would be an insult to Islam to infer that Mohammed was immoral by outlawing a practice he espoused.

* Since death in the name of Islam is required by the Koran for anyone who blasphemes against Mohammed or Allah, we must amend our constitution to ban all religions other than Islam.

* Since family dishonor is so devestating to Muslims, we must pass laws protecting Muslims from prosecution who murder their sisters, mothers or wives in honor killings.

* We must immediately pass laws to round up and dispose of all Jews, because their very existance is an abomination to Muslims (and we mustn't offend the Muslims!)

Any other alterations to our Constitution that need to be made so we don't offend Muslims? Please add them below! I bet we could even get Conyers to write up the amendment! Dhimmitude, here we come! Woo!



Comment #297: Jesse Braun said on 5/25/05 @ 2:43pm ET...

This is the most reactionary piece of legislative crap I have see. We have in our constitution freedom of religion. That is also the freedom to not have a religious beleif and/or the right to criticize other religions. This would infinge on our freedom of speech and expression. You would be doing your country a great disservice introduceing this.



Comment #298: newname said on 5/25/05 @ 2:45pm ET...

I have kind of an unspoken agreement with the fundimentalist Christians I'm forced to be in contact with. It goes like this: I don't blaspheme around you, and you don't preach to me. It works, and we can be civil.

Those of you who want the freedom of speech to irritate Muslims, you have that right guaranteed. But why do it? What purpose does it serve?

I could email my sister-in-law right now and tell her she's a mental case for following the Bible. I could run off a series of "god damns" at her. I could tell her that her religion is nothing but a crutch to cover up her obvious mental instability.

But then, Christmas at Mom's would cease to be fun.

I'm not going to comment further on this subject. I'm just going to try to be nice to religious fanatics of all types, so they don't hurt me.

It was 3,000 people last time. Next time, it will be 30,000,000 unless someone can broker some peace in the world. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be watching the Republicans vote in lock step to confirm John Bolton to the UN. Very soon, all this will be a moot point...since there won't be enough of either side left to argue.



Comment #299: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 2:51pm ET...

Kira, you bitch.

Stop crapping up the board with all this off-topic garbage.



Comment #300: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 2:52pm ET...

Love you too, Beo.



Comment #301: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 2:53pm ET...

By the way, Beo, it's not off-topic if you have comprehension skills.



Comment #302: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 2:55pm ET...

Now lets play nice.... If we do not understand the problem, by listening to the proponents of the idiocy, we cannot "fix" the problem. ;-)



Comment #303: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 2:56pm ET...

I see the poser has posted more inflammatory posts in my name (#299.) Not me. Trust me, I'll upset people with the truth rather than simply resort to childish bickering and namecalling.



Comment #304: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 2:57pm ET...

Kira

Dr. David Ray Griffin? You are kidding right? This guy makes Chompsky look sane. Who in their right mind would swallow one mans rant (unsubstantiated I might add) about what he believes is "false" info. created by the the elected commission panel members (In a cabal with the Jews no doubt). Six of the hijackers still alive? How old are you?

newname

Those of you who want the freedom of speech to irritate Muslims, you have that right guaranteed. But why do it? What purpose does it serve?

That is what the original point of this whole thread was. No one wants or polans on doing it, everyone just wants to preserve their rights under the first amendment that [protects them from censorship of free speech.



Comment #305: Rabbi Moskowitz said on 5/25/05 @ 3:00pm ET...

Now let's not bring the Jews into this, you anti-semite.



Comment #306: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:04pm ET...

#298:
"Those of you who want the freedom of speech to irritate Muslims, you have that right guaranteed. But why do it? What purpose does it serve?

I could email my sister-in-law right now and tell her she's a mental case for following the Bible. I could run off a series of "god damns" at her. I could tell her that her religion is nothing but a crutch to cover up her obvious mental instability. "

Answer me this: is your sister prone to going on murderous rampages? No? Then I recommend the "leave her alone" philosophy. If she ever starts killing those who disagree with her, you might want to intervene.

See the difference? I wonder if she would appreciate you equating her to those who bomb buses and schools.

But the real issue is this: should you go to jail for criticizing her beliefs? Should I go to jail for criticizing yours? A guy in Australia is going to jail for criticizing Islam. No other crime. He's not even telling lies. He's quoting directly from the Quran. But what he says paints Muslims in a bad light, and he's going to jail for it. Do you want that to happen in the United States? This is the first step towards that. The dangerous thing about silencing someone's opinion is that one day it will be your opinion that gets silenced. It's much better to let people rant. If what they say is wrong, it will catch up to them. If they're right, maybe others will learn something. See? Now that is tolerance.



Comment #307: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:04pm ET...

Sean II thinks the information presented by Griffin is unsubstantiated -- that just goes to show you how little effort Sean II has put into searching for the truth behind 9/11.

You see -- that's one of the problems we have in our country -- people who don't know how to, or don't care to do research and instead choose to blindly follow.



Comment #308: "Bob" Dobbs said on 5/25/05 @ 3:05pm ET...

304: "What purpose does it serve?"

It serves the purpose of TRUTH.

It's ALL a bunch of BULLSHIT --
the Christian Bible, the Jewish mythology, the Koranic fables, all of it. All a bunch of HATE PROPAGANDA that serves to start more strife, war and violence in the name of imaginary desert warrior deities. Hogwash.



Comment #309: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:14pm ET...

Kira, Dan, et al.:

You want to protect the rights of a Muslim to be antisemitic, mysoginistic, bigamistic, pedophilic, exclusivistic, violently proselytic, and utterly intolerant.

You want to do this by denying me the right to criticize those practices.

You accuse ME of the greater crime for my criticism.

You either don't see anything wrong with the Islamic belief system or (most likely) you don't believe that is truly representative of the Islamic belief system.

You accuse me of intolerance for disapproving of this, yet you defend the Muslims who are utterly intolerant of me and you and anyone else who is not a Muslim.

Can you offer any explanation for your duplicity? Do you even understand what you are saying? Do you believe what you are saying? If for you, tolerance is the highest virtue and intolerance is the highest vice, then you should hold Islam in the highest disdain.

As it is, you are either ignorant, deluded, or complicit. A fine example of Western self-loathing you are.



Comment #310: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:16pm ET...

:laughs: Beo, I think you've misunderinterpretated what I and the others you named have said.



Comment #311: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 3:16pm ET...

Kira

What a presumptuous post and a weak attempt to belittle me. Your one man crime solver has substantiated nothing. He is alone in his paranoid world with you and all his underlings spitting and spouting about government cover ups and the like. You post the claims reported by him, it is your job to provide the proof, not mine to attempt to refute them.



Comment #312: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:17pm ET...

See -- exactly what I said, Sean II.



Comment #313: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 3:21pm ET...

Uh, not at all Kira, not even close. You want to post about outrageous theories then you better have some substance.



Comment #314: Be nice to Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:21pm ET...

Beo is right!

the government has no business authoritating what I should believe or what I should consider "holy"...

any endorsement of a religious paradigm by government oversteps the boundary of freedom of speech and the separation of church and state.



Comment #315: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 3:23pm ET...

Despite the flaws of the 911 report it giot some stuff correct like laying the responablity Squarely on the QUran and at Mohameeds feet .
The resolution is not a law it is more a window into the atmosphere of the sewer washington has become and reveals the contempt congress has for America

Thus our strategy must match our means to two ends: dismantling the al
Qaeda network and, in the long term, prevailing over the ideology that contributes
to Islamist terrorism.

page 22 of 31 of 911 summary

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/22_07_04911execsum.pdf

In addition to making anticipated findings on the 2001 plot and recommendations for homeland security, the commission offered a series of foreign policy prescriptions to correct what it suggests is an unbalanced global strategy. The effort is to shift the government away from focusing on what the report calls a "generic evil," and toward a more precise definition of the threat.

The report argues that the nation's enemy consists of two parts: al Qaeda -- a stateless network of terrorists that is "weakened but continues to pose a grave threat" -- and a radical ideological movement in the Islamic world that "is gathering and will menace Americans and American interests long after" Osama bin Laden is gone.

"The enemy goes beyond al-Qaeda to include the radical ideological movement inspired in part by al-Qaeda that has spawned other terrorist groups," the report said. It calls not only for the dismantling of al-Qaeda but an ideological battle against fundamentalist Islam.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”

The passage itself can be found in two places. It is on page 39 of the Noble Qur’an translation by Muhammad Khan and distributed by “King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur’an—The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. It is a footnote to Qur’an 2.190 and is designed to explain Jihad according to Allah as this is the first time the word is used.
And it can be found on page 580 of the Islamic University of Medina’s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari’s Hadith. There it opens Bukhari’s Book of Jihad.

In both cases, the Islamic scholars are condensing Allah’s and Muhammad’s teachings on Jihad to a single paragraph.



Comment #316: F15C said on 5/25/05 @ 3:24pm ET...

newname wrote: "Those of you who want the freedom of speech to irritate Muslims, you have that right guaranteed. But why do it? What purpose does it serve?"

Freedom of speech is a 'purpose' unto itself, requiring no further explanation is required to you or Representative Conyers.

The issue is not the ability to "irritate Muslims", it is the freedom to not have my speech controlled by Islam. We Americans have a right to freely question Islam if we so desire. Do you disagree?

I have no desire to irritate Muslims, but if they become irritated by my exercise of free speech, then who is the intolerant one?

As far as I'm concerned, Muslims (or Christians, or Jews, or anyone else religious or not) can say anything they want to within bounds that have been set as precedent in our law (think yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater). However, when that speech turns to deadly action against my family, friends, or fellow Americans of any religion, then I have an problem with the speaker and taker of said actions. Do you? It seems not.

Where does tolerance end and suicide begin?



Comment #317: Satan's Daughter said on 5/25/05 @ 3:24pm ET...

Cearest #298
You are making a mistake thinking that Muslims want peace. While some individual Muslims may want peace, the collective umma wants to dominate the world. Islam divides the world into Dar-al-Islam and Dar-al-Harb and there can be no peace between them. In their minds everything belongs to Allah and it is their purpose to claim all lands for Allah. While some want to achieve this through terrorism, others are rewriting history saying that Muslims were here before Columbus and that all Native Americans are really Muslims they have simply forgotten. Still others are working through the system looking for whatever laws they can twist to their purpose. When they can't get what they want by asking, they will then go on to threats and intimidation.
You should never assume other cultures have the same values and desires as your own. These are the same people who will lop off a 7 year old daughter's head because she was raped, these are the same people who are happy and proud when their sons and daughters become suicide bombers, these are the same people who will push homosexuals off cliffs.
What you see as reasonable behavior to obtain peace, they see as a weakness to be exploited.
The third Satanic sin is
"3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point."
It is always a mistake to think that others will think and react like you do. Muslims have already proven themselves ready to kill for the tiniest insult, they have already proven themselves unstable both mentally and emotionally, they have already proven throughout the world that they cannot get along with others or even each other. Appeasing them does not work, as Europe is finding out.



Comment #318: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:26pm ET...

Sean II is too lazy or unwilling or incapable of looking for the mainstream media as well as FBI reports that support Griffin's statement.

Proves my point.



Comment #319: zorro said on 5/25/05 @ 3:26pm ET...

clearly muslims are the NEW CENTURY NAZIS



Comment #320: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 3:27pm ET...

Its a full court press!!!!

In an act of total insanity, the Council of Europe decided to ban criticism of Islam, equating it to anti-Semitism.

Selcuk Gultasli in zaman.com wrote: “Anti-Islamism has been included in the text as a “dangerous inclination” that has to be fought against upon the insistence of Turkey at the summit that 46 Council members attended. The conclusion draft of the summit included the notion of "Islamophobia". The inclusion of this notion in the European organizations' documents for the first time is described as the success of Turkey.

The 3rd Council of Europe summit has for the first time mentioned "Islamophobia" in the 9th paragraph of the Warsaw Declaration that was accepted on Tuesday, May 17. The Council has reached the following decisions regarding the issue: Condemnation of any kind of intolerance and discrimination based on gender, race and religious beliefs in particular, including Islamophobia and anti-Semitism, the fight against these within the framework of the Council of Europe and the use of effective mechanisms and rules to combat these problems.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006353.php#comments



Comment #321: Satan's Bowel Movements said on 5/25/05 @ 3:27pm ET...

Dear Satan's Daughter:

Would you kindly shut up and go back to your goth club? Aren't you supposed to be rooting FOR evil?



Comment #322: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 3:28pm ET...

Whatever, Kira, rant on.



Comment #323: dan said on 5/25/05 @ 3:30pm ET...

This resolution is an obvious attempt to pander to Muslims, most likely in exchange for votes and donations. The First Amendment already accords all the protection that faith--or any faith--requires. I can only hope that Conyers has opposition that may one day defeat him. As it is though, he is so liberal that no one takes seriously anything he has to say. And thank God for that.



Comment #324: Sean Sucks said on 5/25/05 @ 3:30pm ET...

Sean,

Please stop crapping up the board with your drivel.

Thanks.



Comment #325: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 3:32pm ET...

Thank you Kira. I was going to do a post on Dr. Griffin after lunch.

I really don't believe that Beo could link to the Moonie Times and Little Green Turdballs and expect us to all keel over with the power of 'truth'.

This has gone dumb.
I keep swearing I won't continue.
I'm out.
Peace,
Next thread.



Comment #326: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 3:34pm ET...

A lot of smart posting going on here about he evils of islam and the koran's evil nature. You have to beleive that those of us who criticise islam and its perverted book have to "be on to something" if we are causing such consternation to both sides of the political spectrum. Perhaps, just maybe, we have "prematurely" for the liking of the powers that be, we have discovered the TRUTH. islam and its paractitioners is the pseudo-religion that in point od fact is a political movement like the NAZIS, or the Communists.

The general populations' problem is that our leadership in the Americas loves middle eastern oil too much and is unwilling to turn Saudi Arabia and the crap countries that follow its lead, into glassy deserts. * I suspect that slightly radioactive oil will do work, just fine.* LOL



Comment #327: newname said on 5/25/05 @ 3:34pm ET...

I said I was done, I know, but:

#308 You're absolutely right. Nearly every war ever fought in the world has been about, or caused by, organized religion. "Our God is better than your God".

I'm opposed to war, not for or against any particular religion. I'm against them all. That's why I don't go around instigating fights with people over their religion, including my crazy sister-in-law (who could very well go ballistic). Unfortunately, we're in a war between our "Christian nation" and an entire Islamic region. I'd like that to stop. Seriously.

Islam has no political power in the US. Christians are running Washington DC. If this is about our safety, we could be putting money and effort into watching who comes here, instead of traipsing around the world finding people to piss off more than they already are.

Some Muslims like to blow stuff up. Some Christians like to blow stuff up. Some anti-gay mayors like to molest little boys. Some churches like to kick people out for how they vote. Some people like to spam weblogs with name calling. Some people like listening to Rush Limbaugh. Some people in Florida will shoot you for setting a drink down on their Bible, and legally get away with it.

WE MUST STOP ISLAM BEFORE THEY TAKE OVER THE WORLD!! Okay...go ahead. Blow something up, see if that stops them. I'll wait here for the retaliation.



Comment #328: To Newname said on 5/25/05 @ 3:40pm ET...

Thanks!

Now, if I say "it's all a bunch of crap" and this resolution is in force, then what? Do I go to jail? Get impounded into re-education camp? what sort of waste of personnel manhours and trifling legal actions should I expect?



Comment #329: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:40pm ET...

Kira:

:laughs: Beo, I think you've misunderinterpretated what I and the others you named have said.

"Misunderinterpretated?" I can neither confirm nor deny that charge as it consists entirely of nonsense.

If by that atrocious excuse for a word you mean "misinterpreted," then I assure you that I did not. By supporting this congressman's resolution, you are saying exactly what I outlined. Maybe you and Conyers can get together, rub your two I.Q. points together and start a fire...

Sean II is too lazy or unwilling or incapable of looking for the mainstream media as well as FBI reports that support Griffin's statement.

Sweetie, as the person making the statement (or "allegation" as the case may be), it is YOUR job to provide evidence - not his. You can make any claim you want - it's not my job to do your research - do your own! Debate consists of "ASSERTION, BASIS, ASSERTION, BASIS" - NOT "ASSERTION ASSERTION ASSERTION." If you have reputable people to back your claims, do so. You don't. You have no basis. You only surround yourself with what you want to hear. After all, if George Bush turns out NOT to be the most evil mastermind in the history of the universe, it would shake your whole world-view. You might even have to admit that he occasionally gets things right. You might have to admit that he's not the only one who fumbles words ("misunderinterpretated," anyone?)



Comment #330: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 3:41pm ET...

Islam advocates the hatred of the Jews in particular but also of Christians who according to the Quran have corrupted their Scripture and call Jesus the son of God. The Quran’s biggest condemnation is reserved for the people of other religions and of no religion. All these people, including Jews and Christians are considered to be najis and fuels of hellfire. This is hate. This is hate-mongering. There is no other way to put it. Why are we not banning the Quran? Why are we not condemning Islam for blatantly advocating hate?

The decision of the Council of Europe is oxymoronic. How can we condemn anti-Semitism if we are not allowed to criticize Islam that incites hate of the Jews and says God transformed them into swine and apes? Is this not insult?

There is a fundamental difference between religions and people. One is made of flesh and bones and the other is merely a doctrine. People must be protected, but doctrines don't need to be protected. They have to be scrutinized, questioned and if found dangerous or wrong, rejected. Doctrines that advocate the hatred of people must be criticized and banned, not protected. How can we protect the rights of people to life and to freedom if at the same time we protect doctrines that incite hatred against them? If someone calls Muslims filthy, untouchable, impure, he is inciting hate. He should be stopped. This is clearly a racial insult. But the Quran calls all of us who are not Muslims najis. Najis means filthy, untouchable, impure. Why criticizing this book of hate should be against the law? Is this not double standard? is this not hypocrisy? Is this not dhimitude? Why Muslims should be allowed to insult everyone else but criticizing this hateful doctrine should be against the law?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/006353.php



Comment #331: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:42pm ET...

Hi Dan. I know, I think we stumbled into the wrong room -- this turned out to be "being hit on the head lessons" when we really just wanted an argument.

I came here for a good argument, and an argument is not the same thing as contradiction. Arguments are an intellectual process. Contradiction is just an automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.



Comment #332: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 3:43pm ET...

America has taken the fight to the land of the "two rivers".... I would rather have people being blown up in a land where I do not personally know the occupants, and the occupants are largely muslim, than to have the islamic terrorists come to the Americas and blow up Pizza Parlors and Bus Stops like they already do to the poor Israelis.

If there must be death and destruction because of islam and the evil muslims then let it be in their homeland, not in the Americas. Is that selfish, YOU BET! However, we did ont start the blood bath, 19 islamic murderers did. I prefer to have the new conflict have as its focus the already screwed up Middle East.

Regards



Comment #333: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 3:45pm ET...

I totally agree with Mr. Conyers' resolution regarding religious tolerance; however, I do not think it quite goes far enough. The resolution only prevents destruction of the Koran in the physical sense. The real problem is the words used by bigots who seek to offend practitioners of the religion of peace. In Christian churches all over America, pastors preach that there is no other way to God but through Jesus. This philosophy breeds the type of bigotry that leads to acts of racist violence. I feel the following steps also need to be taken to ensure the safety of all Americans and world citizens:

1) All forms of speech that incites violent behavior and encourages bigotry should be considered hate speech and should be punished by fines and/or imprisonment.

2) Any holy texts should adhere to certain guidelines that support equality. All texts should be sensitive to religious pluralism and respective of other beliefs. Congress should define acceptable context that would exclude any idea that there be only one way to God.

3) So called religious gatherings should never be limited to one point of view. When any group seeking tax exemption for religious entities should have to ensure the government that other points of view be presented so that listeners can decide for themselves which path to God makes the most sense.

I'm sure opponents of these resolutions are bound to quote the first amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"

These are times that are completely different from those our slave owning, so called, founding fathers lived in; they new that times would change so they gave us the ability to amend the constitution to better reflect our times. These are the times we live in. Unless we act now, these senseless acts of bigotry and offensive speech will continue to breed violence in the world



Comment #334: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:45pm ET...

Funny Beo doesn't recognize bushspeak LOL

And I think anybody who deserves to live in this country under Democracy, ought to do their own good research. Otherwise, you ought to pack up & move out because we don't need anymore dead weight here.



Comment #335: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 3:47pm ET...

Kermit... You must be a green frog.. or "talking with tounge firmly planted in cheek". You almost sound as nutty as Kira... LOL.



Comment #336: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:50pm ET...

Kira, if you want "argument," please respond to #309 with something more substantive than ":laughs:"

If you want an "intellectual process," please, by all means, show me where I'm off base in #309. Show me where I'm mistaken in #296. Otherwise, quit twittering and pretending that YOU are the one elevating the discourse.



Comment #337: To Ed said on 5/25/05 @ 3:50pm ET...

"we did ont [sic] start the blood bath"

Ed,

If you go back into your history books trying to find out "who started it" is like trying to find out who started farming. The Arab people do have quite a large arsenal of "we didn't start it" argements at their disposal. More than the Jews and the west as far as I can tell.

As far as the "us" starting it, you should be aware that the Old Testament tells many tales of anti-arabic wars, such as the cronicles of Joshua detail. Then there were the conquests of Alexander and the beheading of thousands of Muslims by Richard the Lionhearted.

Perhaps if the west and the jews can admit the great history of injustice and violence commited upon the arabic people, and recognise history, that would be a place to begin rational discussion in the aim of eventual and long-lasting peace.



Comment #338: wwrwtw said on 5/25/05 @ 3:51pm ET...

Mr Conyers,
You can make us all go away if you ask you friends from CAIR or ANY muslim for that matter to give you and ALL of us one UNABROGATED verse that says Islam is a religion of peace. Just ONE verse



Comment #339: newname said on 5/25/05 @ 3:52pm ET...

Hey Dan and Kira:

I understand that Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo has a weblog that allows comments. How about we all march over there in a big group and spam up his board?

We could call him names, declare him a traitor, throw spitwads, and put gum in his hair. Wouldn't that be fun??

I mean, if we were TWELVE, wouldn't that be fun??



Comment #340: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:52pm ET...

#333 Kermit:

That's either the funniest satire I've read today or the most pathetic piece of ignorance I've ever read from anyone literate enough to write it. I can't tell which.



Comment #341: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 3:52pm ET...

SORRY KERMIT AS I HAVE DEMOSTRATED ON THIS BLOG AND THE ONE JOHN SHUT DOWN USING YOUR STANDARD THE QURAN IS HATE SPEECH ,AND ISLAM IS IRREFUTABLY A HATEGROUP



Comment #342: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:53pm ET...

Kermit, I mostly like what you're saying, but I do have a little problem with this one:

1) All forms of speech that incites violent behavior and encourages bigotry should be considered hate speech and should be punished by fines and/or imprisonment.

...because, I have been accused of saying hateful things on this thread & the other one devoted to this topic ... and I don't believe I said anything hateful, but apparently, my words were perceived that way by some who are rabidly searching for hate.

I even identified myself as a Christian and several posts were devoted to claims that I "sure must hate Christians", which I found odd, to say the least.

I think people should be rewarded for positive and loving behavior. It sure works when training kids & pets. I wonder how this idea could be implemented??



Comment #343: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:54pm ET...

Poor Beo, doesn't know the Python gang. :sorry:



Comment #344: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 3:57pm ET...

So you still can't answer me, Kira?



Comment #345: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 3:58pm ET...

On what, Beo?



Comment #346: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 4:00pm ET...

Kira, please refer to #336. Perhaps you missed it.



Comment #347: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:02pm ET...

Newname #339 what fun! We could spray-paint his hair pink & then flush his head in the toilet! HooHah!

I really love irreverant humor, by the way! My God likes to laugh, too.



Comment #348: Beo & Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:02pm ET...

If you two don't stop fighting,
I'm going to turn this car around
and we'll NEVER go to Disneyland.



Comment #349: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:03pm ET...

Beo, sweetie, I did respond to your #336. Perhaps you missed my reference to the Python Gang.



Comment #350: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:04pm ET...

#348 - Sheesh. I thought we were already living in Disneyland - LOL!!



Comment #351: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 4:09pm ET...

That is your retort as to why your argument is duplicitous?

Deflection; answer the question: "Why should you tolerate a religion that tolerates no one else, yet be intolerant of me for not tolerating said religion?"

Am I confusing you? Is that too hard for you to understand? Answer the question. Otherwise I will conclude once and for all that this message board is filled with 7th graders who have nothing to do now that school is out.

If you can't refute my argument, then my argument stands. You can keep pretending you're intelligent, and I'll leave it at that and leave your ignorance in full view of all who read this page.



Comment #352: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 4:14pm ET...

See post 300 Kira has a fact proof mind and is obviously practicing kitman.



Comment #353: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 4:16pm ET...

Sorry 330 and she has a fact proof mind .
Jez I need to proofread



Comment #354: The Truth said on 5/25/05 @ 4:17pm ET...

" "Why should you tolerate a religion that tolerates no one else, yet be intolerant of me for not tolerating said religion?"

Because you won't shut up.



Comment #355: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:18pm ET...

#352 and #353 -- still needs clarification. What are you trying to say?



Comment #356: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 4:19pm ET...

Here is what tancredo has to say on this issue 339

How can we exist on a planet if there are hundreds of millions of people who believe that if one does not believe in their God, if one does not accept their principles of religious ideology, that they do not deserve to exist and that they are, in fact, some sort of threat to them?

We need to do other things that encourage Islam to look internally and to reform itself. There are many people, I read comments by leaders in the Islamic faith, Muslim leaders, that suggested that they too had come to the conclusion that something was very, very wrong inside their religion. Some even called it a corrupted religion. They lamented the fact that in recent history, although terrorists had different kinds of nationalities and ethnicities, they had one thing in common: they were Muslims. And they lamented that fact, and they said there is something wrong with this religion. There is something wrong with a religion that, in fact, promotes a cult of death. So there is hope that reform can come to Islam.

I agree with some of the comments made earlier by some of the folks over here that said that terror is not the thing with which we are at war. It is simply a tactic. I have said this on this floor many times and now for several years, and I am glad to hear it being repeated by others because, of course, it is important for us to understand who the enemy really is.

[Time: 23:10]

I think our friends on the other side did not go as far as they needed to go to actually describe them. It is fundamentalist Islam with which we are at war, make no mistake about it. And whether that fervor, that Islamic fervor leads you to do things like press for a separation from Russia because you want to create an Islamic republic, it is still fundamentalist Islam with which the world is at war. Or whether it manifests itself as it did here by planes crashing into buildings and into the Pentagon and into fields in Pennsylvania, it is fundamentalist Islam with which we are at war. Around the world, incidents occur. There are motivating factors that combine to create them, but when you sort of get to the bottom line, what is the common element? It is fundamentalist Islam.

http://www.house.gov/tancredo/newsroom/2004_09_13.html
How can we exist on a planet if there are hundreds of millions of people who believe that if one does not believe in their God, if one does not accept their principles of religious ideology, that they do not deserve to exist and that they are, in fact, some sort of threat to them?

We need to do other things that encourage Islam to look internally and to reform itself. There are many people, I read comments by leaders in the Islamic faith, Muslim leaders, that suggested that they too had come to the conclusion that something was very, very wrong inside their religion. Some even called it a corrupted religion. They lamented the fact that in recent history, although terrorists had different kinds of nationalities and ethnicities, they had one thing in common: they were Muslims. And they lamented that fact, and they said there is something wrong with this religion. There is something wrong with a religion that, in fact, promotes a cult of death. So there is hope that reform can come to Islam.

I agree with some of the comments made earlier by some of the folks over here that said that terror is not the thing with which we are at war. It is simply a tactic. I have said this on this floor many times and now for several years, and I am glad to hear it being repeated by others because, of course, it is important for us to understand who the enemy really is.

[Time: 23:10]

I think our friends on the other side did not go as far as they needed to go to actually describe them. It is fundamentalist Islam with which we are at war, make no mistake about it. And whether that fervor, that Islamic fervor leads you to do things like press for a separation from Russia because you want to create an Islamic republic, it is still fundamentalist Islam with which the world is at war. Or whether it manifests itself as it did here by planes crashing into buildings and into the Pentagon and into fields in Pennsylvania, it is fundamentalist Islam with which we are at war. Around the world, incidents occur. There are motivating factors that combine to create them, but when you sort of get to the bottom line, what is the common element? It is fundamentalist Islam.

http://www.house.gov/tancredo/newsroom/2004_09_13.html



Comment #357: Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 4:21pm ET...

I think there are many present here who have fact-proof minds, with John Conyers Jr. in preemminence.

If you are in this clown's district, vote him out. One thing we do not need in this country is idiotic congressmen with no comprehension of the Constitution.

I can put it no better than Benjamin Franklin: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

On that note, I bid you all adieu.



Comment #358: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 4:22pm ET...

kira 355
It is clear what Im saying your're a lying muslim deviod of reason and facts trying to defend the indefensable.
A truely detestable human being



Comment #359: Bye Bye Beo said on 5/25/05 @ 4:24pm ET...

See ya --

You're right, by the way.



Comment #360: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:24pm ET...

Hooray! Beo #357

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.



Comment #361: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 4:25pm ET...

In response to "Comment #337: To Ed said on 5/25/05 @ 3:50pm ET... "

You know I have indicated that 11-09-01 was the start of the current conflict, and I do mean that as a result of the action taken by the 19 pieces of HUMAN SH*T called islamic terrorists, thousands of innocents were MURDERED.

NO ONE who was MURDERED by the 19 islamic pigs had personally done anything to harm those islamic animals.

If you want to say that somehow, because of what is said to have occurred over a thousand years ago the 19 islamic swine who MURDERED thousand are somehow justified, then you are one SICK PUPPY.

We were not "HUNTING ISLAM" prior to 11-09-01. Now, notwithstanding the pronouncements of the President of The United States, it is clear that by hunting out the TERRORISTS, we are in point of fact hunting down, virtually EXCLUSIVELY, the practitioners of that disgusting excuse for a religion, islam.

I do not care to look to ancient history to justify actions. Every day we, as individuals, have to choose whether we will act in a civilized fashion or whether we will follow the hateful edicts of a long dead pedophile, mohamed the Molester.

I choose to not follow that evil swine who is even now burning in HELL , in my opinion.

The war that is being fought to day is for the very survival of our right to remain free of the scourge that is islam. I say we need to fight to win, without any Dhimmi restrictions of self agrandizing politicians.

Its time that the beheading of islam and its terrorists took place, in my opinion.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!



Comment #362: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 4:26pm ET...

Actually, I meant to say that I am a dumbass and Kira is a nice person.



Comment #363: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:26pm ET...

Thank you kAOSKTRL #358 although you couldn't be farther from the truth.



Comment #364: "Bob" Dobbs said on 5/25/05 @ 4:29pm ET...

"
Its time that the beheading of islam and its terrorists took place, in my opinion."

Well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, eh?

It takes two to tango, dickless.



Comment #365: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 4:30pm ET...

It takes a brain dead islamic vermin to falsely post under anothers name.... eg. Comment #362: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 4:26pm ET...

Actually, I meant to say that I am a dumbass and Kira is a nice person.

-- -- -- --

I guess that is to be expected from the followers of the pedophile. ... FOP... a new acronym?

HA!



Comment #366: FFDN said on 5/25/05 @ 4:30pm ET...

Kira sez,
"I really love irreverant humor, by the way! My God likes to laugh, too." Then your god must not be allah, Khomeini said "There is no fun in islam"



Comment #367: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 4:30pm ET...

Any 'religion' which allows calls for death for non-believers is not a religion, but a mob.
Death before dhimmitude. (theirs!)



Comment #368: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 4:31pm ET...

Comment #364: "Bob" Dobbs said on 5/25/05 @ 4:29pm ET...

"

So sad to hear of your confessed "shortcoming."

LOL



Comment #369: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 4:34pm ET...

I am a dickless goober.

Don't mind me.

I don't know what I'm talking about,
but the only thing I have to pound is my keyboard. I wish I had a pud.



Comment #370: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 4:39pm ET...

The spoof didn't work, the spoofer's confession of stupidity did.
Dickless spoofers everywhere, they haven't anything else to offer as far as support for their statements.



Comment #371: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 4:42pm ET...

Furthermore,

I believe this resolution posed by Mr. Conyers could not have come soon enough.

I've been reading this message board and others. I feel that I must respond to hate speech where I see it. For instance:

**It is completely wrong to compare the posh treatment of Jihadists who are being held at Guantanamo Bay to the savage treatment of Christians being held by Muslim Jihadists in the Philippines. They have a right to preserve their culture.

**It is also hypocritical to site the millions of Christians who are being slaughtered by Muslims in the Sudan after the 400 years of oppressing African-Americans we have perpetrated in this country.

**The worst Post I saw asked the question, "How many Al Jezeera media personnel have been decapitated by Christians." The hate speech that continues every Sunday in the Christian churches across America has decapitated their culture.

Perhaps if Mr. Conyers is successful, we will not have to tolerate this bigoted hate speech any longer.



Comment #372: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 4:43pm ET...

St. Luke 12:1-3

1. In the meantime, when there were gathered together, an innumerable multitude of people insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, (Jesus says)Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hyprocisy.

2. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.



Comment #373: wwrwtw said on 5/25/05 @ 4:45pm ET...

You conyers followers are the strangest immature lot I have ever seen. I'm sure he is very proud of you...NOT! I would think he would distance himself from you but then again...He supports terrorism



Comment #374: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 4:48pm ET...

Kermit 371
Kindly show us how anyone has "decapitated" Their culture, or forfeit your point.
Mind you, I work and know more than a few, they are all enjoying happy successful lives here, where I would be quickly slain in their homeland.
Now, explain your "decapitate".



Comment #375: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 4:58pm ET...

Cheapshot,

You racist, facist, bigoted, white devil, homophobes are all alike. You think that just because your oppresive, racist western culture is rightfully under attack, that you have the right to create hate speech to attack defenseless innocent, peaceful cultures that are different from your own.

For shame!



Comment #376: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 5:00pm ET...

"Perhaps if Mr. Conyers is successful, we will not have to tolerate this bigoted hate speech any longer. "

Ahaaaaaaaaaa! There we have it...the true point of all of this...is stop people from speaking their minds

How about this: I believe Islam is a backward ass religion...that doesn't hold a candle to western civilization...

Arrest me...I dare ya



Comment #377: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:03pm ET...

It is a shame, Kermit. A REAL shame. People who have the warring mentality are fearful xenophobes.



Comment #378: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 5:03pm ET...

Nothing to see here folks just move along



Comment #379: nobodyspecial said on 5/25/05 @ 5:04pm ET...

wwrwtw...What Would Right Wing Terrorists Wear?

Yes, I'm immature. Stick around, later we'll be throwing erasers and playing "made you look!" That's what we do at conyersblog, since he refuses to censor trolls who only come here to be pests.

It's called FREE SPEECH...but the Bush Administration knows nothing of this strange new idea. Unfrozen Caveman President would NEVER allow you to go to his website, or town hall meeting, and disagree with him. You'd be lucky to survive trying.

Now, who is MORE American?

Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist...and a Republican...and an American who got a FAIR TRIAL. He was treated with dignity right up until his death, and nobody pissed on his books.



Comment #380: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:04pm ET...

"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower



Comment #381: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:08pm ET...

Touché, nobodyspecial.



Comment #382: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 5:08pm ET...

Kermit, relax the veins on your noggin are standin' up, YOU created the "hate speech" as a strawmant. What you regard as "hate speech" is not that, but a refutation of a point of yours that you cannot support, or a cheap way out of dealing with reasonable analysis. In your estimation, a cop yells hate speech at an armed felon;
"Stop or I'll shoot!". Sorry, that's not hate speech, but good advice.



Comment #383: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 5:14pm ET...

Cheapshot,

I beg to differ. When the racist, facist, biggoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, police officer yells, "Stop or I'll shoot" while mercilessly clubbing the black man who he's aiming at before he shoots him 21 times would probably be considered hate speech.



Comment #384: RG said on 5/25/05 @ 5:15pm ET...

Perhaps if Mr. Conyers is successful, we will not have to tolerate this bigoted hate speech any longer. Kermit

In your dreams bozo. No one is going to curb other peoples right to free speech. What you consider to be hate speech is not hate speech. What a disgusting joke this resolution is.



Comment #385: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 5:16pm ET...

"I beg to differ. When the racist, facist, biggoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, police officer yells, "Stop or I'll shoot" while mercilessly clubbing the black man who he's aiming at before he shoots him 21 times would probably be considered hate speech."

this was obviously written by a stupid asshole...a leftist...and/or 'hate whitey' retard...going to college on an affirmative action ticket

u should love whitey



Comment #386: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 5:20pm ET...

I am going to assume that Kermit is just here stirring it up just for his/her own amusement.



Comment #387: RG said on 5/25/05 @ 5:20pm ET...

"When the racist, facist, biggoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, police officer yells," Kermit

And Kermit doesn't want hate speech???



Comment #388: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 5:23pm ET...

The resolution has nothing in the galaxy to do with bettering the lives of his constituents, but is a harbor to hide his political barge from to actually reply to rational analysis.
Very handy to be able to bolt from a hot topic debate cryin' "hate speech, I don't have to answer that!", when his plausibilty factor is hanging down there where it usually is.
Silence the opposition,,It's all they have left,



Comment #389: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:23pm ET...

Joe Mama & Sean II (again) and RG -- If you guys (or gals) won't take the time to research, you'll never understand the very valid and relevant statements made here.

I know what you referred to, Kermit.



Comment #390: FozzieBear said on 5/25/05 @ 5:33pm ET...

It seems to me that if Mr. Conyers ever reads these comments he'll realize that all the intelligent debaters are opposing him, while all of his supporters are immature contradictionists of the "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" sort.

Kira, you're one of the worst. You make wild claims and then actually suggest that the burden of proof for your argument is on US? Beo was right. There are a bunch of people here with a junior high school mentality. I use the word mentality lightly.



Comment #391: FozzieBear said on 5/25/05 @ 5:33pm ET...

It seems to me that if Mr. Conyers ever reads these comments he'll realize that all the intelligent debaters are opposing him, while all of his supporters are immature contradictionists of the "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" sort.

Kira, you're one of the worst. You make wild claims and then actually suggest that the burden of proof for your argument is on US? Beo was right. There are a bunch of people here with a junior high school mentality. I use the word mentality lightly.



Comment #392: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 5:33pm ET...

Kermit, I thought I was going into a debate, but you forfeited at first blush!
U sweet lil' troll you!
'Consolation latte?



Comment #393: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:35pm ET...

#390 - Typical Rovian tactic. :c'est la vie:



Comment #394: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 5:39pm ET...

Now you've got the tactical id., what's your reply?



Comment #395: wwrwtw said on 5/25/05 @ 5:40pm ET...

#379...First of all you have no clue about my political affiliation..This is NOT a dem/republican issue. I will NOT sit back and do nothing when ANY person is trying to limit my right to free speech and in turn allowing the islamists to have MORE!

With regards to McVeigh perhaps you need to do some reading on that subject. Start with The Third Terrorist by Jayna Davis..You may be enlightened



Comment #396: FozzieBear said on 5/25/05 @ 5:41pm ET...

Kira, #393 - are you for real?

Do you think that a prosecuting attorney levels charges against a defendent without evidence and supporting documentation? Whose job is it to support those allegations? HIS.

You make allegations that the 9/11 commission was a farce. Whose job is it to support those allegations with FACTS and EVIDENCE? YOURS.

You want the person who doesn't believe you to try prove YOUR point. That is profoundly stupid.

Here's one for you: "Drinking cyanide is dangerous. Now go do the research."

Honestly, where does Conyers find these people?



Comment #397: FozzieBear said on 5/25/05 @ 5:45pm ET...

Sorry, I forgot I was talking to a foolish person with no understanding.

To everyone else:

Have you noticed how people like Kira and her friends have steered the topic of these comments away from the original point? (How Conyers' resolution is unconstitutional, in case you can't remember.) They can't argue intelligently or support their position on this topic, so they turn the topic to nonsense and lower the dialog to their level.

Just an astute observation.



Comment #398: Cheapshot_911 said on 5/25/05 @ 5:47pm ET...

Hey Fozzie,,, I'm outta here, need bigger things to plink than these chipmunks.
There's other places that banter facts, links and real things.
'Sooooo kind of you to allow "high school" mentality.
For me to accurize that mentality statement would require "hate speech".



Comment #399: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:47pm ET...

FozzieBear, I never alleged that the 9/11 Commission was a farce. You made that up.

The other point I made stands tall above yours and that is for our fragile Democracy to survive, We The People must know what is going on - that doesn't mean just watch FOX News & reading littlegreenfootballs.

Don't expect others to do your homework for you.



Comment #400: Lisa said on 5/25/05 @ 5:48pm ET...

Kira,

Are you the wing-nut kook that posts on RightNation?



Comment #401: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 5:49pm ET...

Nope. I've never been to that site.



Comment #402: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 5:50pm ET...

Cheers to FozzieBear and wwrwtw...there's nothing more infuriating than arguing with a weak kneed liberal...

They don't care about the truth...about right or wrong...or about America

As a rule...they were indoctrinated in some college...by liberal priests...who made them feel morally superior to everyone else

What is the foundation for this condescension? Most liberal professors couldn't run a taco stand

Why should we take their political views seriously?

Do you really think they have the resolve of a GWBush? To do the right thing...after months and months of being pummeled and berated by people of their ilk?

These people are cowards...with no vision...and more importantly...no respect for the greatness that is America



Comment #403: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 5:52pm ET...

Here we go.

Why is it that everytime we try to have a conversation about ending hate speech, some racist, facist, sexist, bigoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe has to go and pull the "constitution" out of his rear end?



Comment #404: FozzieBear said on 5/25/05 @ 5:53pm ET...

#399, Kira:
Yes you did. In Comment #295, you quoted David Ray Griffin's bizarre allegations ad nauseum, but with no supporting evidence. Is your brain so swiss-cheesed that you can't remember posting that?

I'd much rather read the news on Fox or LGF than read your opinions here. I think I'll go do that now.



Comment #405: 7.62 NATO said on 5/25/05 @ 5:59pm ET...

So, Kermit, that constitution is infinitly better that what you pull out of YOUR rear end to support your cases!



Comment #406: FozzieBear said on 5/25/05 @ 5:59pm ET...

JoeMomma, you actually think these people have college educations? They sound more like high school drop-outs to me.

Kermit, you crack me up. Decrying "hate speech" while simultaneously levelling seven slurs against your intellectual superiors. Go somewhere far away where the Constitution of the United States of America will never bother you again.

From the level of debate on each side of this issue, it's obvious which side wins the argument. You lose. I must leave now before I spend hours exposing you for the fools you are. I'll just let you do that on your own, I'm sure you'll do a smashing job!



Comment #407: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 6:00pm ET...

Kermit must think he's in some liberal arts class...the way he's pushing for cheap cheers from the left side of the room...as well as from Islamo-fascists...

'racist', 'fascist', 'sexist','white devil', 'bigoted'?

Is Kermit educated and intelligent enough to see...that 'white devils' stopped fascism? Stopped slavery? -where else was a war fought to stop slavery?-...anyone on earth as dumb as the 'white devil' to fight that one?

And 'sexist'? Guess that's what we all were when we gave women the vote...almost 100 years ago

Are there any Islamic countries that allow women to vote that weren't liberated by the US? If there are...u can count em on one hand...pretty pathetic for a religion that boasts 1 Billion people

Xenophobe? Listen Kermit...White America...accepts more immigrants than ALL OTHER COUNTRIES ON EARTH COMBINED...get off ur freakin high horse...before someone knocks u off

So f*ck off with ur brand of stupidity...u r either an ignorant muslim...or an ignorant leftist...or both

Either way...u don't stand a chance in a fair debate...and u r obviously educated beyond ur intelligence

All u can do is throw out the same old tired cliches of the hate-america left

You are nothing Kermit...just another shit talking retard of the left...with no substance

U have boat loads of attitude...but no ability



Comment #408: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 6:05pm ET...

FozzieBear...the sad sad truth...is that Kermit...is a typical example of...say...an English major...in his language and his -lack of- thought

Kermit...say it aint so...u r now...or were in college...and u most certainly didn't study a hard science...u studied 'womens studies' or sociology...or some other horseshit



Comment #409: Kira said on 5/25/05 @ 6:09pm ET...

Sorry, #404, I reiterate, "FozzieBear, I never alleged that the 9/11 Commission was a farce. You made that up."



Comment #410: Chris L. said on 5/25/05 @ 6:12pm ET...

Comment #6: "There is nothing there that any true Christian can find fault with, since the Bible teaches (above all else) love and tolerance."

Yes, and as we all know, what the Christian Bible teaches should be be adopted as the official policy of the United States Government.

Remember, you heard it here first.



Comment #411: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 6:13pm ET...

I take offense that my degree in multi-cultural studies from Brown University would be considered horse excrement in your opinion. I think all of you racist, facist, sexist, bigoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, capitalist pigs should at least spend one semester studying multi-cultural studies. Perhaps you would become more enlightened and sensitized to the plight of the world.



Comment #412: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 6:15pm ET...

This is about Islam and the hatfilled document that makes up the foundation of the politcal movement called islam.

Is truely a vile expression of a deraged dispicable man filled with rage revenge mysogony and dreams of world domination.
That anyone would suggest that the docuemnts hould be resoected is either utterly ingornate of what ies within the covers or does and just doesnt cair.

Anyone who fails to recognize what the Quran is has failed to uphold their oath of office "to protect the constitution rom enemies both foriegn and domestic."
The Quran singular standing order is to fight until only muslims remain and all relgion is for Allah.'A "diety" that is far removed from what Christians kmow as God as muslims are from knowing the truth .

Poping off about hate speech and intolerance is not a good enough reply to the charge that Islam calls for my death and my childs enslavement.
suggesting the house is predisposed to respecting this document is a personal affront generated from crass ignorance or consent which it it Mr Conyers?



Comment #413: haroon khalid said on 5/25/05 @ 6:17pm ET...

Islam calls for my death as an apostate, death for all hindus and buddhists, death to all homosexuals and 2nd class citizenship for Jews and Christians. How can you propose a resolution that will prevent the criticism of the above mentioned things? Mr. Conyers, go read the Quran. These items are commanded in the Quran and we Americans will never be able to criticize it because of your stupid resolution. I understand freedom of religion, but what happens when the religion claims to be superior in authority to the U.S. constitution and directly contradicts the constitution?



Comment #414: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 6:18pm ET...

Dr. David Ray Griffin is a nut job, often quoted on indymedia and other fringe websites. Kira cut and pasted some of what he claims are wholes in the commission report. he cites but does not provide sources in the FBI that supposedly back up his conspiratorial claims. Basically he takes these supposed omissions and fills them with speculation (wildly so) that is accepted as fact by those who are susceptible to grand conspiracy theories. They are speculations not only unsupported by actual witnesses but are more often than not contradictory to highly available and credible NAMED witnesses and research specialists. two of the most outrageous are the six hijackers that are still listed alive and the "mysterious" collapse of the WTC 7. What a bunch of bunk that, is all I am going to contribute regarding this ridiculous subject.



Comment #415: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 6:18pm ET...

Kermit...why would we follow ur path? We might wind up like u

'multi-cultural studies'? Yep...sounds like the type of horseshit I was referring to...I can see they did wonders for ur debating skills...let me guess...all classes were taught by hate american leftists? Guilt ridden liberals teaching self-hate to imbeciles like urself...who obviously gobbled up everything and were good little boys and girls

Diversity in everything...except thought...right Kermit?

I love how u name drop 'Brown University' as if we're all supposed to be impressed

Kermit...do u think ur 'more enlightened and sensitized' to the plight of the world than the rest of us?

Let me ask u this Kermit...how much...do u suppose...Affirmative Action helped u get into college

Let alone graduate



Comment #416: Dan said on 5/25/05 @ 6:20pm ET...

To the trolls with a thousand faces,

You guys finally got one right!
I am a highschool drop out!
And I'm 'smarter' than you!

Kira, Kermit, and anyone else with a mind to waste, this thread should be dead.
Let the fundies have it.



Comment #417: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 6:20pm ET...

Frog
Snip

* Dissembles the real nature of the claim
* Identifies any dissenters as enemies of the truth
* Acts as an excuse for any crimes committed in its name

For example the slogan Australia is Multicultural is a claim that:

* Different cultures are compatible.
* People who contradict this claim are blinded by prejudice against other cultures.
* People who contradict this claim are trouble-making bigots, which makes them enemies of the community, if not humanity, and deserving persecution.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/smartboard/pc.htm

multiculturalism is horse pucky not all ideas are equal sometimes it is right to descrimanate



Comment #418: Sean II said on 5/25/05 @ 6:23pm ET...

Kermit

racist, facist, sexist, bigoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, capitalist pigs

WTF? Is that all you can parrot?

Talk about sounding like an indoctrinated drone...



Comment #419: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 6:29pm ET...

"Kermit

racist, facist, sexist, bigoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, capitalist pigs

WTF? Is that all you can parrot?

Talk about sounding like an indoctrinated drone..."

Oh...and don't forget 'frightful bore'

Kermit...was sent by God...to show us all...what a liberal education...now produces: a name calling bore who can't hold his own when the debate starts

Kermit...if u paid for college...do u realize how badly u got ripped off?



Comment #420: whatever said on 5/25/05 @ 6:35pm ET...

Re: #402

I'm a liberal with a high school diploma. Never finished business school...got knocked up and married instead.

I'm a liberal because: I've been a middle class housewife and mother, a two-job working single parent, unemployed, bankrupt, poor, homeless, uninsured, a business owner, and a DINK (dual income, no kids). I've been on the inside of most every issue.

I'm not a racial minority, nor am I gay, but some of my friends are, and they are experiencing discrimination. It's hard for me to watch, and I'd like to see less of it.

My parents lived through the Great Depression, and joined the middle class after the New Deal was signed. I watched the VietNam war on TV, and rejoiced when my brother failed the physical after he was drafted.

My kids are struggling to pay for college (that's how you get a job in this country). Two of my kids are currently without any health insurance...one has a chronic condition since birth that requires expensive tests that he can't afford. He hasn't seen a doctor in 2 1/2 years.

There's a war going on, and I've already lost a family member in Iraq. I don't want any of my kids to be next.

If I'm an elitist, it's news to me.

Islam is NOT my pet issue...fear of terror is a Bush thing, a Republican thing. 9/11/01 was not about killing Americans, it was about attacking our financial and military centers, and Americans were killed in the process. I'd prefer that our government reexamine their foreign policy in the Middle East, and try to find some peace without murder.

My issues are what Democrats stand for...healthcare, jobs, a solid middle class, and peace. That's why I support John Conyers. If this resolution is a mistake, so be it. It's still a minor one, compared to the mistakes of the Bush administration.

A week ago, everyone was yelling about Newsweek..."they shouldn't be printing what Americans do to Korans, because it's causing more death!" Yet, this is how Americans really feel...the Koran is trash, Islam is trash. They know you felt that way BEFORE the Newsweek article, and this forum has confirmed it.

If nothing else, Mr Conyers resolution has proven that Koran desecration is LIKELY to have happened at Guantanimo Bay. You know you all would do it if given the chance.



Comment #421: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 6:37pm ET...

Wow!

I leave you people for a brief time and "Bob" Dobbs confesses to being a penis-less wanna be...

Kermit tells us he actually spent more than five minutes contemplating the anus of the world, *cough* "Multi-cultural Studies at Brown University" * as he sneers down his assinine blue blooded silver spoon when born embarrassed nose at those he considers to be inferior due to a long standing self-loathing* (Amazing how accurate online psychiatry can be, isn't that right gentlemen and Ladies.. Brrr! Frightening.)

Kira is up to her old "I am Princess Leigha" routine.... as she barely deigns to write poisen pen brief messages to the unwashed... *chuckle*

And then there is Dan.... what is Dan... who knows... To speak in "American" ...Who Gives a Rip!"

WWRWTW, KAOSKTRL, JoeMomma (Really a neat monniker), and even the low volume poster, haroon khalid, really have their heads on straight, no doubt much to the chagrin of the islamic vermin who populate Mr. Conyers District and this site....

Enough pandering Mr. Conyer, just pull your Unconstitutional Resolution and let those of us on this Continent Call islam and muslim terrorists what they truly are... No games.. Just Truth..

Regards Dhimmi,

Sincerely,

Ed B



Comment #422: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 6:42pm ET...

Are all of you trying to imply that my wonderful professors at Brown mislead me? That is truly horse excrement. These were the greatest women, native americans, and yes, arab americans from whom I ever had the pleasure of learning.

Believe it or not I entered brown with the hopes of becoming an MBA. However, as I soon found out, I was the problem with the world. These wonderful people changed the course of my life and I will always be eternally grateful. Were it not for these great teachers, I too would be a racist, facist, sexist, bigoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, born again, capitalist pig. I would have never learned to revile this testosterone pumping through my veins.



Comment #423: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 6:52pm ET...

Tell you what whatever I never though about descreating the Quran untill I was told by Rice Bush and conyers it might be a bad idea now I do it daily.
I know the book backwards and forwards it is vile and thats a fact.
Some of it you can hardly tell from Mien Kampf

CAlling names and alledging bigotry is insufficient in the face of the charge the Quran calls for my death.

http://infidels.kafirnation.com/due%20you%20want%20to.gif



Comment #424: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 7:08pm ET...

LOL...Oh lord...Kermit...u must be a conservative pulling our legs

"These were the greatest women, native americans, and yes, arab americans from whom I ever had the pleasure of learning"

Were there any 'white devils' among them? R U grateful to them as well? Any Jews? How come they don't get a glowing review by u? OH...its not PC to point these people out...only native Indians...who are about as rare in Academia as hen's teeth

"Were it not for these great teachers, I too would be a racist, facist, sexist, bigoted, white devil, homophobe, xenophobe, born again, capitalist pig. I would have never learned to revile this testosterone pumping through my veins."

Do you really hate yourself that much? I guess u really were paying attention in ur hate whitey, hate america, hate men classes...let me clue u in...u were not educated...u were indoctrinated...u were trained by a bunch of hate-america leftists...who are mad as all hell...the soviet union fell...and who did EVERYTHING they could for years on end...to make America fail...including...not educating their students...and producing hate-america robots like urself

When I read what u write...I know...I am not dealing with an educated person

And the word is 'Fascism'...not facism...I figured I'd spell it right on a few posts and give u a clue...but now I feel compelled to correct ur spelling...because this is a word u use a lot...even though u know nothing about it...let alone how to spell it

U R not well read Kermit!!! And it shows in every sentence u write

Its a waste of time to argue with people like u Kermit...ur anything but open minded...ur anything but educated...and ur an unbearable name calling condescending leftist twit...all throughout

The really sad thing...is that u don't have the self-knowledge to see how trully warped u r...what a burden it is...for the rest of us...to tolerate u

Let me ask u this Kermit...do u think it would be better -for u- or worse -for u- to live here in the US...where people like u r tolerated...if not produced...than say...Iran...Syria...or Saudi Arabia?

And do me a favor: THINK before u respond to that one...don't just do ur usual knee-jerk 'I hate America...white people...fascists'...bs rant

Show us...for once...that ur not a complete idiot...formulate an answer...that DIDn't come out of one of ur Professor's assholes



Comment #425: Satan's Daughter said on 5/25/05 @ 7:10pm ET...

Dearest #296
Mohammed married Ayesha when she was 6 but waited until she was 9 to consummate the marriage. Your change is several years off.
From the late Ayatollah Khomeini, who married a 10 year old girl in order to emulate the *cough* prophet.
" -A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed."



Comment #426: Kermit said on 5/25/05 @ 7:15pm ET...

If my professors spell it "facist" then that must be correct.

"And the word is 'Fascism'...not facism...I figured I'd spell it right on a few posts and give u a clue."

My professors also spell "u" you.

Facist!



Comment #427: Satat's Daughter said on 5/25/05 @ 7:17pm ET...

FOAD #321
No, I will not shutup
No, I am not a Goth
No, I don't root for evil

and if you don't like it you can KMLWALCA



Comment #428: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 7:27pm ET...

Oh...and that's another one I'll never understand...Mohammed was clearly a pedophile...even the Koran says so...but if anyone comes along and says...'Mohammed married a 6 year old...and fucked her at 9'...they draw the ire of the entire muslim world

Why is this so? Is it disrespectful to point out fact? A fact that even Islam admits?

R we supposed to refer to Mohammed as a 'Holy Pedophile'? Or a 'Pedophile Prophet'? What is the proper etiquette here?

What we are about to see happen...historically...is the reformation of Islam...the same sort of thing that the Church went through in the middle ages

Listen up closely...Islam...ur backward assed ways are coming to an end...YOU WILL JOIN HUMANITY AND THE MODERN AGE...or you will continue to be despised as the backward assed ignorant fools that too many of u are

And you will learn to respect people of other religions and creeds...or u will continue to be humiliated by people who -unlike u- respect knowledge...like the Jews in Israel...who kick ur backward assed societies around every day of the week...even though u outnumber them more than 10 to 1

Fuck u all if u can't live and let live...I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT THE KORAN SAYS...the US Constitution is a far more noble document to base society upon

The west has accomplished far more than Islam...WITHOUT...the fucking koran...thank you very much

QuickAside: this post could get me killed anywhere in the Muslim world...but not here...not in the good ol United States of America...where people are bigger...and more fair...in their minds...where I can rant till I'm blue in the face...and safely go home...instead of being stoned to death...by a bunch of backward assed dark age fuck ups

this asshole John Conyers...is trying to compromise freedom of speech...fuck him!



Comment #429: JoeMama said on 5/25/05 @ 7:30pm ET...

"If my professors spell it "facist" then that must be correct.

My professors also spell "u" you.

Facist!"

LOL...oh...u really r a retard...hey everyone...don't use shorthand around Kermit...he thinks u don't know how to spell 'you'...when u spell it..'u'

Go to www.dictionary.com and do a search for facist

Ooops...there's nothing there under that spelling...ur professors taught u well



Comment #430: Ed B said on 5/25/05 @ 7:48pm ET...

Dear Whatever,

I am a of an ethnic derrivation that I would be classified as a minority.. *Whoopie*

My skin is brown.... I resemble a middle eastern man.... I had the misfortune of having to go to Boston's Logan Airport in late October, 2001. I felt like everyone was watching me.... BECAUSE THEY WERE. And who could blame them. Not I.

Long ago I was a liberal. I paid my dues to the Sierra Club and to the American Civil Liberties Union. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth.

My Step father told me of the Great Depression and of actually being turned back from the California State Line by Sherrif's from Imperial County California because , "We have too many DAMN OKIES."

I missed Nam by one year.

I will tell you this. The best and most reliable helping hand you will EVER have is right at the end of each of your arms. I once believed that the Democrats were for the "Poor" the impoverished... those that wanted government help... The TRUTH is that the Democrat party of the United States is in the business of trying to do "just enough" so that it can continue to have an excuse... a mission to accomplish. The Democrat Party never has, not in my lifetime, really sought to provide programs to help Americans unless those programs also generated publicity so that they could be re-elected. If a program was too successful, the Democrat Party would "work themselves out of a job".

A glaring example of where both parties of America fail to do the right thing because of their own personal, not constituent interests is the American response to illegal immigration. The Democrat Party wants people to enter to America in droves so that wages will be depressed, so that the U.S. infrastructure will be harmed and so that there will be a renewed NEED to have the DEMOCRAT PARTY "SAVE THE DAY!" The Republican Party does not want to stop illegal immigration because by letting the illegal aliens enter America the wages are depressed, the profit margin for companies that hire illegal aliens is increased, and the actual societal cost of the illegal alien employees is shifted from the employer to the taxpayers... an actual undocumented WELFARE for the Employers of Illegal Aliens. As American infrastructure is damaged, more and more MEDICAL facilities are shut down or the resources of the remaining facilities are so depleated that regular legal Americans have to endure a lower quality of health care.

Tell me... Which party is worse in this area? Sounds like a "DRAW" to me.

But please notice... You said that the Democrat Party stands for Healthcare. You are not blind. YOu see what I see, neither party seeks to stop illegal immigration. You see, at this time, the politicians think that it is less important that they supply you and others who need quality healthcare with healthcare than they each accomplish, quite sureptitiously, their different hidden agendas. Both parties play games with your healthcare, meanwhile both parties PRETEND that the scarcity and rising cost and lowering quality of healthcare... is not their fault. In point of fact it is the fault of BOTH PARTIES because of the conscious policy choices that each of them make.

Think. Do not let any Government's Agent tell you how to think.

Mr. Conyer's resolution is ill considered pandering to his islamic constituency. You know, many of us who have learned what the islamic mullahs and imans have in mind for us, yes you included, is a slavery of the soul that is worse than a simple merciful death. Learn... I see that you must love your children, if not your own life. Learn about islam to protect them and yourself, assuming you are not muslim. If you are muslim, then all I can say is I am sorry and will keep oyu in mind...

Bye for now.

Ed.



Comment #431: jazzlover said on 5/25/05 @ 7:59pm ET...

Representative CONYERS:

The US Constitution gives me the right to trash a Koran, a Bible, a Tahlmud or anything else that I want to. Its called FREEDOM and the 1st AMENDMENT.

I am offended that you think you have a right to take that freedom away from me. This is just another stupid resolution and I am ashamed you are my Representative in Michigan.

By the way, ever hear of Separation of Church and State?



Comment #432: whatever said on 5/25/05 @ 8:00pm ET...

To Ed:

I'm a new Democrat. I used to be a non-voting, electoral college hating, Independent.

Until George W Bush came along.

Let's just say I trust Democrats more than Republicans. I have to vote for somebody, and we have no 3rd party that stands a snowball's chance of hell of winning.

I spend much of my day watching CSpan, so I see first hand what these people are all up to. The Democrats are speaking to me, and the Republicans are laughing at me.

Now I'm done with politics for the day. The "Lost" season finale is on, and I'd much rather be on an island with a monster than be here.

Goodnight Ed and everyone.



Comment #433: kAOSKTRL said on 5/25/05 @ 11:34pm ET...

This is about Islam and the hatfilled document that makes up the foundation of the politcal movement called islam.

Is truely a vile expression of a deraged dispicable man filled with rage revenge mysogony and dreams of world domination.
That anyone would suggest that the docuemnts hould be resoected is either utterly ingornate of what ies within the covers or does and just doesnt cair.

Anyone who fails to recognize what the Quran is has failed to uphold their oath of office "to protect the constitution rom enemies both foriegn and domestic."
The Quran singular standing order is to fight until only muslims remain and all relgion is for Allah.'A "diety" that is far removed from what Christians kmow as God as muslims are from knowing the truth .

Poping off about hate speech and intolerance is not a good enough reply to the charge that Islam calls for my death and my childs enslavement.
suggesting the house is predisposed to respecting this document is a personal affront generated from crass ignorance or consent which it it Mr Conyers?
Are you willing to learn and declare Islam as an antifreedom anti liberty anti tolerent politcal movment?



Comment #434: Kat said on 5/26/05 @ 12:09am ET...

Conyers is the biggest dumbass in Congress. Even bigger than Pelosi or Boxer. Quite an accomplishment and should make everyone in his state proud. ha.



Comment #435: Koranic_Flush said on 5/26/05 @ 12:45am ET...

Supporting Islam is like supporting communism or nazis. The only Muslims in the world that don't hate the US are the ones living here.

Quit denying that 8 out of the top 10 hotspots in the world are caused by Islam vs anyone who doesn't agree.

Jr, you should be ashamed of yourself.



Comment #436: Passing By said on 5/26/05 @ 1:11am ET...

Not even being an American (I wish I were) this attempt at a resolution stinks to High Heavens.



Comment #437: Passing By said on 5/26/05 @ 1:24am ET...

Koranic Flush said : "The only Muslims in the world that don't hate the US are the ones living here."
Was Mohammed Atta living in Timbuktu when he crashed a jet on the WTC you think ?



Comment #438: RAG said on 5/26/05 @ 1:51am ET...

Children Accused of Blasphemy HEY CONYERS, THINK THE CHILDREN SHOULD DO TIME???



Comment #439: Riggs said on 5/26/05 @ 1:51am ET...

This is ironic.
Let us say for example that my, and others that oppose this resolution, belong to a religious sect that demands that we oppose militant Islam in any way possible. Let us then suppose that in doing so we get called “hate mongers” “Right Wing nuts” “religious fanatics” “racists” “bigots” “white devils” and accused of inciting violence (all things said in this thread about people that oppose this resolution).

Well those names and accusations may be completely true, however if resolutions like the one we are discussing are in-acted if we are offended by those names, we would actually have legal recourse to file hate crime charges against the people that had the nerve to say those things. Oddly those peoples that said those hateful things in quotes did so supporting the very resolution that would criminalize the very speech they used, since the resolution is worded to protect any and all religious groups (including hypothetical dangerously militant religions).

Personally I prefer the way life is now, where if I feel strongly against something I can speak my mind about it, have a debate if need be, then go home and still be friends with the people I disagree with. I do NOT want to see an America where if someone offends my religion locked away in prison. I mean lets face it, do we really want the Religious Right (who is offended nearly hourly by the Left) to be able to press charges against anyone that offends their religion??

The First Amendment forbids Congress from making ANY laws concerning religious establishment, partially because no matter how well meaning that law may be, it can always be twisted for gain by some religious group or another.



Comment #440: Max said on 5/26/05 @ 1:56am ET...

Sean II and the rest of the wingnuts:

http://www.911truth.org

Just get educated about the truth for once. Stop spitting out the same rhetoric and actually look at the facts.

Represenative Conyers,
I have to say the legislation is very controversial. The Radical Christain Right is no different than the Islam Extremists in their hate and intolerance, as well as bigotry. They both hate eachother so much there is no room for compromise.

Nevertheless, I don't believe religious intolerance should be allowed. At the very least, it should be regulated and that regulation should be forced unless and under extreme circumstances.

If someone shreds a Bible or burns Books of Doctrines, or even for the sake of argument lights Quoron on fire, the controversy in it needs to be dealt with.

The constitution protects freedom of religion and tolerance of religion. ISLAM is not to blame for all the tragedies in the world, and the RAPTURE is not caused by ISLAM.

Our country will never grow anywhere else but fully into racist fascism, if we do not seperate the definitions of religion tolerance.

Quoron, Islam, and even Jewish may be completely evil to many people. That does not mean we have the right to persecute, harass and murder them--They should simply stay out of our country if bigotry is what they profess.

Likewise, Radical Christian Extremists should stay out of the country or be reprimanded for their own bigotry. Fundamentalism is a destructive thing on all levels.

Instead of wording it as Islam or anything in particular, I think you should re-adjust the bill to simply support religious intolerance of FUNDAMENTALISM in any forms, which there is complete evidence of worldwide.

By issuing out the true evil, it allows the bill to be looked at in a much more conscious light. Some religions are seen as absolute evil while others or not, those which are need to be issued as such.

I would not support the legislation in its current form, I believe the wording needs to be re-structured and debated to be focused on ALL fundamentalism regardless of creed.

Max



Comment #441: Kira said on 5/26/05 @ 4:47am ET...

There have been many references to "Iraq the Model" and littlegreenfootballs on this thread. There is much information coming out lately about the Fadhil brothers, oil corporations and propaganda.

Here are some links to follow:

Another Crack in the Wall

Iraq the Model, the Full Story

Ali Fadhil exposes Spirit of America



Comment #442: newname said on 5/26/05 @ 8:05am ET...

Seems to me there was a time in this country when people were afraid that "Coloreds" would "rape and murder our children", or poison the water by drinking from a fountain. People who had committed no crime were hung from trees or beaten to death. If they were allowed a trial at all, they were railroaded by all white juries.

Thank goodness those days are over, right?

We are supposed to be INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY in this country, yet the anti-Conyers element here will insist that anyone who follows Islam is guilty of the crimes of terrorism and murder. They believe these people should be humiliated and afraid to leave their homes. They believe we should travel to other lands and kill as many of "THEM" as possible, because "THEY" will kill us if we don't.

"THEY" are guilty BEFORE committing any crime, much like another group of "THEY" from our past.

Regarding the freedom of speech, the fact that this thread exists is proof of John Conyer's commitment to the 1st Amendment. On any other blog, MOST OF YOU would have been banned, blocked, and your comments deleted.

While I believe that it would be EASIER to come here every day if there was some censorship, I respect Mr Conyer's courage to take the heat from such a vocal group of opposers. That's something you don't see much of in today's USA. (Bushie is STILL spending MY tax dollars to speak to REPUBLICANS ONLY about Social Security!!! It must be that Uncle Karl and Uncle Dickie want to keep him out of their way while they run the country into the ground.)

The response to the Newsweek article was "Oh NO, American troops would NEVER do that, it's all LIES!" It was even said here at conyersblog by our resident Hankerchief, aka Snotrag. The official story from the White House and Pentagon was that they had a protocol in place for treating the Quran with the utmost respect.

And yet...one after another, Americans have said "The Quran needs to be flushed", "I'd wipe my butt with the Quran", et al. Are we still supposed to believe that Quran desecration NEVER HAPPENED?

You have all confirmed for me that it DID happen, and the Newsweek story was correct.

Now, if Newsweek was responsible for the riots, and Newsweek told the truth, it makes sense that desecrating the Quran is FUELING THE HATRED and putting our troops at risk.

Just how long do you all want this war to go on? How many more dead?

Go READ that yellow ribbon on the back of your SUV.



Comment #443: Kat said on 5/26/05 @ 9:32am ET...

#440 Max "Just get educated about the truth for once. Stop spitting out the same rhetoric and actually look at the facts."

Kettle? By the addy of your webpage and the quick look I took at it, maybe think about following your own advice. Diebold didn't vote in Ohio.
I am always disappointed in the intellect in the left side of the sphere. Very disappointed.



Comment #444: michelle said on 5/26/05 @ 9:38am ET...

Thanks Kira! Just the fact that you "can almost" agree with Kermit gave me the laugh of a lifetime.
:O) And telling us to "hunt for the truth" while linking to 'bushout'???? hahahahahahaha Hilarious!

The people who keep saying "you're going to make them hate us" should wake up. MILITANT islam declared war on us a looong time ago. There is nothing we can do to change their minds, and kissing their asses certainly won't do it.



Comment #445: michelle said on 5/26/05 @ 9:41am ET...

newname -- Who gives a flying f%$k if the koran desecration 'really' happened? If it did, does that give anyone the right to RIOT?

Seriously?



Comment #446: michelle said on 5/26/05 @ 9:58am ET...

I'm sorry folks, but I have to tell Kira I am STILL laughing about her linking to "ghandi".

Too funny.



Comment #447: RickZ said on 5/26/05 @ 10:02am ET...

# 434 kat said: "Conyers is the biggest dumbass in Congress. Even bigger than Pelosi or Boxer. Quite an accomplishment and should make everyone in his state proud. ha."

That loony-tune idiot from Georgia, Rep. Cynthia McKinney would give Conyers a good run for his money when it comes to the (dis)honor of being "The Biggest Dumbass in Congress." But whoever is the ultimate "survivor," the list is a wonderful giggle of clowns eminently worthy of being members of the Dhimmicratic Party: They are jack@sses all.



Comment #448: Sean II said on 5/26/05 @ 10:06am ET...

MAX

http://www.911truth.org? Are you for real?

That falls in the same category as indymedia. Face it, you are part of the fringe who thrive on such inplausible conspiracy theories. keep peddling them,, about 1% of the rational population will actually buy it. Now move along...



Comment #449: KAOSKTRL said on 5/26/05 @ 10:28am ET...

To elevate the Quran to the point where it deserves respect is an act that lends credibility to those in the midst of an ideological tantrum . It in fact lends aid and comfort to the enemy without regard to your unwillingness or inability to identify the enemy as Islam.
Act of terrorism like 911 part of a delusion fantasy world struggling to revive and complete the goal’s Islamic imperialism.
This included the subjugation and eventual eradication of none Muslim in the whole world in accordance with Islamic dogma whose ultimate source is the Quran.
If that does not qualify islam as the enemy than the entire concept of enemy has no meaning.
Please consider this as an opportunity to retract your support for enemies of freedom tolerance liberty and equality .



Comment #450: wwrwtw said on 5/26/05 @ 11:07am ET...

Islam For Infidels-Part One
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php

Islam For Infidels-Part Two
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004748.php

Islam for Infidels, Part Three (Section One)http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004748.

Islam for Infidels, Part Three (Section Two)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/005051.

For goodness sake READ and LEARN SOMETHING!



Comment #451: Steve-o-reno said on 5/26/05 @ 11:07am ET...

What part of "Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion" doesn't Representative Conyers understand?



Comment #452: JoeMama said on 5/26/05 @ 11:16am ET...

"newname -- Who gives a flying f%$k if the koran desecration 'really' happened? If it did, does that give anyone the right to RIOT?"

We have to ask ourselves how staged those riots were

Look at it this way...we've got Al Queda literally blowing up Mosques and Shiites in Iraq...killing them wholesale...by the hundreds...week in week out...

The reaction of the Muslim world?

Not a peep

Al Jazeera doesn't seem to mind...neither does the 'muslim street'

However...they hear a 'rumour'...written by a leftist rag like Newsweek...and then amplified by that MuslimRabbleRouser Al Jazeera...and they go ape shit crazy and at least 16 MUSLIMS get killed?

These riots were either organized...or Muslims are even bigger hypocrites than I thought

Either way...what a sorry ass lot of savages!

Hey Everybody...some guy in Pakistan burned the US flag...think I'll go out...into the street...and set cars on fire...and kill a few of my own people...just to show my godliness and piety

And this same religion...this same group of midevil monkeys...wants laws written here in the US...to protect them from offensive observations like: "u r a backward assed religion...that treats its women like cattle...has no respect for the individual and has contributed absolutely nothing these past 500 years to civilization or modernity"

Or to comments like: 'i don't give a fuck what the koran says...i don't agree with ANY of its teachings or ANY its proponents'

Or:

"Without the West...Muslims wouldn't even know how to open an umbrella!"

These are all opinions...and ANYONE and EVERYONE should be able to express them...without fear of some stupid fucking Imam...organizing his retard followers to go kill the person who made these comments

Again...this asshole John Conyers...this total piece of shit...is currying favor with...what amounts...to a hate group...by attempting to compromise freedom of speech for the rest of us...so that these backward assed Muslims...can continue to live their backward assed lives...without having people point out the obvious truth: U R and have been a backward assed religion for a millenia

Fuck u all if u can't handle the truth

Join the human race!



Comment #453: Dreadmore said on 5/26/05 @ 11:23am ET...

I think conyers is a latent homosexual and hates women so much he would bow at the alter of islam just to see women whipped, beaten, and stoned all for his personal glee and orgasmic jubilation!



Comment #454: Grand Moff Texan said on 5/26/05 @ 11:46am ET...

If it did, does that give anyone the right to RIOT?"

We have to ask ourselves how staged those riots were

Well, seeing how the riots started before Newsweek went to press...

...and seeing as how the story was already old hat in that part of the world...

I have to wonder if the people recycling these talking points are any better informed than the citizens of North Korea.



Comment #455: JoeMama said on 5/26/05 @ 11:51am ET...

"Well, seeing how the riots started before Newsweek went to press...

...and seeing as how the story was already old hat in that part of the world..."

If this is true...then why did Newsweek catch the blame? Why have they been backpaddling ever since? Maybe the story was leaked before it went to press? But that would still be NewsWeeks story causing a riot wouldn't it?

And if everyone already knew about this story...in that part of the world...then why the rioting? Especially if it was old hat

These talking points have been on every news network in the last 2 weeks

Maybe the GrandMoff should inform them all what's REALLY happened and happening?



Comment #456: heidi said on 5/26/05 @ 11:54am ET...

We DO NOT NEED this resolution.

Don't you have better things to do than this Representative Conyers?



Comment #457: Peter J. Herz said on 5/26/05 @ 11:57am ET...

As an American abroad and a student of religion and politics, I am disappointed in this resolution--even though I am no bookburner and believe in showing respect to others.

Such a resolution would be appropriate when three blocks away from the Great Mosque at Messa there is a Presbyterian church where Arabic-speaking people with names like Aziz and Muhamad (rather than Antun and Budros) may freely and openly confess Jesus Christ as God incarnate; when Pakistani Christians are not routinely brutalized; when Egyptian and Turkish Christians find getting a permit to rennovate an old church or build a new one a simple routine matter; when Jews may own property in Jordan; and when the PA severely punishes those savage drunkards who desecrated the Church of the Nativity and used the pages of the Bible as tp.

Before such a time, Mr. Conyers, you should be ashamed to introduce such a resolution on the floor of Congress. Why don't you instead ask why the US Department of State doesn't stand up for the right of its Christian and Jewish personnel to practice their religion and possess their sacred books when posted to Sa'udi Arabia?



Comment #458: Grand Moff Texan said on 5/26/05 @ 11:59am ET...

Kucinich has taken part in other CAIR events recently, including a Ramadan iftar, or fast breaking, on Capitol Hill hosted by Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich. That event was co-sponsored by Reps. Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y., Kucinich, Conyers, D-Ohio, Loretta Sanchez, D-Calif., and Barbara Lee, D-Calif.

What? Did they miss the annointing of the Rev. Moon as the new Messiah, held in a federal building and attended by Rep. Danny K. Davis (D-Illinois)?

CAIR's former director of community relations, Bassam Khafagi, was indicted in January on bank fraud charges.

Looks like he would have done better sucking up to Tom DeLay instead.
.



Comment #459: Grand Moff Texan said on 5/26/05 @ 12:08pm ET...

If this is true...then why did Newsweek catch the blame?

Good question.

Why have they been backpaddling ever since?

Did you note what they backpeddled on?

Maybe the story was leaked before it went to press?

You mean two years ago? In the Washington Post?

But that would still be NewsWeeks story causing a riot wouldn't it?

Only if time flows backwards in Afghanistan.


And if everyone already knew about this story...in that part of the world...then why the rioting? Especially if it was old hat

The riots began over accusations of corruption.

These talking points have been on every news network in the last 2 weeks

Yes. Sad, isn't it?



Comment #460: Grand Moff Texan said on 5/26/05 @ 12:14pm ET...

when Pakistani Christians are not routinely brutalized;

one may wonder why Pakistan is our ally, if they let such things happen

when Egyptian and Turkish Christians find getting a permit to rennovate an old church or build a new one a simple routine matter;

Or when Christians in northern Iraq are not allowed to vote...

when Jews may own property in Jordan;

Or when Israel ceases to use Ottoman Imperial laws to deny land ownership to Palestinians...

and when the PA severely punishes those savage drunkards who desecrated the Church of the Nativity and used the pages of the Bible as tp.

Drunkards? Couldn't have been Muslim, then, could they?

Perhaps the Congressman isn't waiting on the rest of the world? Perhaps he's trying to set an example?

Aren't we supposed to be better?



Comment #461: wwrwtw said on 5/26/05 @ 12:19pm ET...

I wish everyone would wake up and realize this is NOT a dem/repub issue. If this resolution was written by a republican I would be just as angry. This is about our FREEDOM! This resolution compromises the First Amendment PLAIN and SIMPLE!
If I wish to call Islam or the qur'an a POS them I WILL! NO ONE in government has the right to stifle my opinion and my right to speak against something evil and destructive to our society and our freedom.
Islam=Jihad against non-believers
Jihad=Death to non-believers
THEREFORE
Islam=Death to non-believers



Comment #462: Grand Moff Texan said on 5/26/05 @ 12:24pm ET...

wwrwtw: all of Islam? The entire Islamic world?

Way to drive more people into the arms of our enemies, dude. Right on.

What's 'destructive to our society and our freedom' is the failure of some to grasp the need for good propaganda in the WoT, those of you who play directly into the hands of the jihadists.

You and the jihadists need each other.
.



Comment #463: Ed B said on 5/26/05 @ 12:28pm ET...

I like to eat my boogers.



Comment #464: Santa's Duhter said on 5/26/05 @ 12:33pm ET...

... and I do NOT help the elves make toys and cookies! KMWCURNTSL



Comment #465: joshlbetts said on 5/26/05 @ 12:35pm ET...

Yeah Grand...I just love cutting the heads off the kafirs.

How bout that Muslim march against terror? Pretty impressive, eh?



Comment #466: wwrwtw said on 5/26/05 @ 1:19pm ET...

#462...you tell me
here are Islam's "holy book" quotes on jihad

JIHAD:

Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”
Qur’an 4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.”
Bukhari:V4B52N44 “A man came to Allah’s Apostle and said, ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.’ He replied, ‘I do not find such a deed.’”
Bukhari:V1B2N25 “Allah’s Apostle was asked, ‘What is the best deed?’ He replied, ‘To believe in Allah and His Apostle Muhammad.’ The questioner then asked, ‘What is the next best in goodness?’ He replied, ‘To participate in Jihad, religious fighting in Allah's Cause.’”
Qur’an 33:22 “Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.”
Bukhari:V4B53N412 “Allah’s Apostle said on the day of the conquest of Mecca, ‘There is no migration now, only Jihad, holy battle. And when you are called for Jihad, you should come out at once.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N311 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘There is no migration after the Conquest of Mecca, but only Jihad. When you are called by the Muslim ruler for Jihad fighting, you should go forth immediately, responding to the call.’”
Muslim:C28B20N4631 “I heard Muhammad say: ‘I would not stay behind when a raid for Jihad was being mobilized unless it was going to be too hard on the believers. I love that I should be killed in Allah’s Cause; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again.’”
Qur’an 9:111 “Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah’s Cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed.”
Bukhari:V4B52N196 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.”’”
Qur’an 47:4 “So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an 9:91 “There is no blame on those who are old, weak, ill, or who find no resources to spend (on Jihad, holy fighting), if they are sincere (in duty) to Allah and His Messenger.”
Qur’an 9:122 “It is not proper for the Believers to all go forth together to fight Jihad. A troop from every expedition should remain behind when others go to war.”
Bukhari:V4B52N46 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘The example of a Mujahid [Muslim fighter] in Allah’s Cause—and Allah knows best who really strives in His Cause—is like a person who fasts and prays without ever stopping. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”
Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote: “Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”
Bukhari:V4B52N65 “A man came to the Prophet and asked, ‘A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah’s Cause?’ The Prophet said, ‘He who fights that Allah’s Word, Islam, should be superior, fights in Allah’s Cause.’”
Muslim:C40B20N4676 “Jihad Is Compulsory.”
Bukhari:V4B52N284-5 “When the Divine Inspiration [Qur’an surah]: ‘Those of the believers who sit at home,’ was revealed, Maktum came to the Prophet while he was dictating the verse. ‘O Allah’s Apostle! If I were able, I would take part in Jihad.’ So Allah sent down revelation to His Apostle: ‘...except those who are disabled, blind, or lame.’”
Muslim:C40B20N4676 “Believers who sit home and those who go out for Jihad in Allah’s Cause are not equal.”
Bukhari:V4B52N54 “The Prophet said, ‘Were it not for the believers who do not want to be without me, I would always go forth in army-units setting out for Jihad.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N216 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Were it not for fear it would be difficult for my followers, I would not have remained behind any army units. But I don’t have riding camels and have no other means of conveyance. No doubt I wish I could fight in Allah’s Cause and be martyred and come to life to be martyred again.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N231 “Allah’s Apostle came to Mecca the day of the Conquest riding his she-camel on which Usama was riding behind him.” [Muhammad was lying.] Bukhari:V4B52N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘By Him in Whose Hands my soul is! Whoever is wounded in Allah’s Cause...and Allah knows well who gets wounded in His Cause...will come with his wound having the color of blood but the scent of musk.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N45 “Someone asked, ‘Allah’s Apostle, who is the best among the people?’ He replied, ‘A believer who strives his utmost in Allah’s Cause with his life and property.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N48 “The people said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Acquaint the people with the good news.’ He said, ‘Paradise has one hundred grades which Allah has reserved for the Mujahidin who fight in His Cause.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N66 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Anyone whose feet get covered with dust in Allah’s Cause will not be touched by the Hell Fire.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N137 “The Prophet said, ‘Paradise is for him who holds the reins of his horse to strive in Allah’s Cause with his hair unkempt and feet covered with dust. If he is appointed in the front line, he is perfectly satisfied with his post, and if in the rear, he accepts it.’”
Bukhari:V4B51N47 “‘What causes you to smile, O Allah’s Apostle?’ He said, ‘Some of my followers who in a dream were presented to me as fighters in Allah’s Cause on board a ship amidst the sea caused me to smile.’”
Bukhari:V4B51N72 “Our Prophet told us about the message of our Lord: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed will go to Paradise.’ Umar asked the Prophet, ‘Is it true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and the Pagan’s will go to the Hell Fire?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes.’”
Bukhari:V4B51N73 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Know that Paradise is under the shade of swords.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N80 “Muhammad said, ‘Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah’s Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the killer who also get martyred in Allah’s Cause.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N287 “The Emigrants and the Ansar said, ‘We are those who have given a pledge of allegiance to Muhammad that we will carry on Jihad as long as we live.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N94 “The Prophet said, ‘Whoever spends two things in Allah’s Cause [his life and his wealth], will be called by all the gatekeepers of Paradise. They will say, “O so-and-so! Come here.”’ Abu Bakr said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Such persons will never be destroyed.’ The Prophet said, ‘I hope you will be one of them.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N130 “Aisha said, ‘Whenever the Prophet intended to proceed on a raid he used to draw lots amongst his wives and would take the one upon whom the lot fell. Once, before setting out for Jihad, he drew lots and it fell on me; so I went with him.”
Bukhari:V4B52N43 “Aisha said, ‘Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah’s Cause?’ He said, ‘The best Jihad for women is the Hajj done as I have done it.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N134 “We used to take part in holy battles with the Prophet, providing his fighters with water and bringing the killed and the wounded back to Medina.”
Bukhari:V4B52N175 “He heard the Prophet saying, ‘Paradise is granted to the first batch of my followers who will undertake a naval expedition.’ The Prophet then said, ‘The first army amongst my followers who will invade Caesar’s City will be forgiven their sins.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N178-9 “The Prophet said, ‘One of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight people wearing shoes made of hair. And you will fight the Turks, a broad-faced people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N182-4 “Allah’s Apostle invoked evil upon the infidels, saying, ‘O Allah! The revealer of the Holy Book, defeat these people and shake them. Fill the infidels’ houses and graves with fire.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N259 “Allah’s Apostle sent us on a mission as a army unit and said, ‘If you find so-and-so and so-and-so, burn both of them with fire.’”
Bukhari: V4B52N203 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘We are the last but will be the foremost to enter Paradise.’ The Prophet added, ‘He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the chief, obeys me, and he who disobeys the chief, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N208 “My brother and I came to the Prophet and asked to migrate. He said, ‘Migration has passed away.’ I replied, ‘For what will you accept our pledge of allegiance?” He said, ‘I will take the pledge for Islam and Jihad.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror. While I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.’ Allah’s Apostle has left the world and now we are bringing out those treasures.”
Bukhari:V4B52N267 “The Prophet said, ‘Khosrau will be ruined. There won’t be a Persian King after him. Caesar will be ruined. There will be no Caesar after him. You will spend their treasures in Allah’s Cause.’ He proclaimed, ‘War is deceit.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Umar sent Muslims to great countries to fight pagans. He said, ‘I intend to invade Persia and Rome.’ So, he ordered us to go to [the Persian King] Khosrau. When we reached the enemy, Khosrau’s representative came out with 40,000 warriors, saying, ‘Talk to me! Who are you?’ Mughira replied, ‘We are Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life. We used to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Tabari IX:49 “Muhammad urged the Muslims by way of a meeting to help cover the expenses of Jihad in Allah’s Cause. The men provided mounts in anticipation of Allah’s reward.”
Ishaq:602 “The Apostle always referred allusively to the destination which he intended to raid. This was the sole exception, for he said plainly that he was making for the Byzantines because the journey was long, the weather was hot, and the enemy was strong.” Ishaq:603 “The Apostle went forward energetically with his preparations and ordered the men to get ready with all speed. He urged Muslims to help provide the money, mounts, and means to do Allah’s work. Those who contributed earned rewards with Allah.”
Tabari IX:76 “Malik has reported to me that you were the first from Himyar to embrace Islam and that you have killed infidels, so rejoice at your good fortune.”
Qur’an 047.033 “Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.”
Muslim:C29B20N4636 “The Messenger of Allah was asked: ‘What deed could be equivalent to Jihad in the Cause of Allah? He answered: ‘You do not have the strength to do that deed.’ The question was repeated twice or thrice. Every time he answered: ‘You do not have the strength to do it.’ When the question was asked for the third time, he said: ‘One who goes out for Jihad is like a person who keeps fasts and stands in prayer forever, never exhibiting any weariness until the Mujihid returns from Jihad.’”
Muslim:C29B20N4638 “As I was (sitting) near the pulpit of the Messenger a man said: ‘I do not care if, after embracing Islam, I do not do any good deed (except) distributing drinking water to pilgrims.’ Another said: ‘I do not care if I do not do any good deed beyond maintenance service to the Sacred Mosque.’ Yet another said: ‘Jihad in the Way of Allah is better than what you have said.’ When prayer was over, I entered (the apartment of the Prophet) and asked his verdict about the matter. It was upon this that Allah, the Almighty and Exalted, revealed the Qur’anic Verse: ‘Do you make the giving of drinking water to the pilgrims and the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque equal to (the service of those) who believe in Allah and strive hard and fight Jihad in His Cause. They are not equal. Those who believed and fought Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and their lives are far higher in degree with Allah.’”
Muslim:C30B20N4639 “The Messenger said: ‘Leaving for Jihad in the Way of Allah in the morning or in the evening will merit a reward better than the world and all that is in it.’”
Muslim:C32B20N4646 “Muhammad stood up among his Companions to deliver his sermon in which he told them that Jihad in Allah’s Cause and belief in Allah were the most meritorious of acts. A man stood and said: ‘Messenger, do you think that if I am killed in the Way of Allah, my sins will be blotted out?’ The Messenger said: ‘Yes, in case you are killed in Allah’s Cause and you always fought facing the enemy, never turning your back upon him.’ The man asked (again).’ The Messenger said: ‘Yes, if you always fought facing the enemy and never retreated. Gabriel has told me this.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N104 “The Prophet said, ‘Good will remain in the foreheads of horses for Jihad for they bring about a reward in Paradise or booty.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N105 “The Prophet said, ‘If somebody keeps a horse in Allah’s Cause motivated by His promise, then he will be rewarded for what the horse has eaten or drunk and for its dung and urine.’”
Ishaq:470 “We attacked them fully armed, swords in our hand, cutting through heads.”
Ishaq:385 “Amr Jamuh was a very lame man. He had four lion-like sons who were present at the Apostle’s battles. At Uhud he came to the Prophet and told him that his sons wanted to keep him back and prevent his joining the army. ‘Yet, by Allah, I hope to tread in the Heavenly Garden of Paradise despite my lameness. The Apostle said, ‘Allah has excused you, and Jihad is not incumbent on you.’ Then Muhammad turned to his sons and said, ‘You need not prevent him. Perhaps Allah will favor him with martyrdom.’ So the lame old man went into battle and was killed.”
Tabari VII:144/Ishaq:426 “The Muslims bivouacked for the night and were taken by surprise. So the Muslims took up their swords [not Qur’ans] to fight them, but the Lihyans said, ‘We do not want to kill you. We only want to get some money by selling you to the Meccans. We swear by Allah’s Covenant that we will not kill you.’ ‘By Allah,’ Asim said, ‘we will never accept a an agreement from an unbelieving infidel.’ They fought until they were killed.”
Bukhari:V4B52N153 “The properties of the Nadir which Allah had transferred to His Apostle as Booty were not gained by the Muslims with their horses and camels. The properties therefore, belonged especially to Allah’s Apostle who used to give his family their yearly expenditure and spend what remained thereof on arms and horses to be used in Allah’s Cause.”
Tabari VII:162 “There is a difference of opinion as to which of his expeditions [terrorist raids] took place after the one against the Nadir. Some say Muhammad remained in Yathrib for two months before leading a raid on Najd.”
Ishaq:445 “The rules of the Prayer of Fear were revealed during this raid [4:102]. The Messenger divided the Companions into two groups; one stood facing the enemy while the other stood behind the Prophet. He magnified Allah by shouting ‘Allahu Akbar.’ Then he and those behind him performed a rak’ah and prostrated themselves.” [Magnifying Allah is “The Prayer of Fear”—appropriate for a terrorist dogma. It is comprised of shouting: Allahu Akbar—Allah is Greatest!]
Ishaq:455 “‘I summon you to Allah, to His Messenger, and to Islam.’ Amr replied, ‘I have no use for these.’ So Ali said, ‘Then I summon you to fight.’ Amr replied, ‘Why, son of my brother? By Allah, I do not want to kill you.’ Ali shouted, ‘But I, by Allah, want to kill you.’ Amr jumped from his horse and advanced toward Ali. The two fought until Ali killed Amr. He shouted, ‘Allahu Akbar!’” Ishaq:456 “As he returned to the Apostle smiling with joy [for having killed his uncle] Jumar asked him if he had stripped Amr of his armor. ‘No,’ Ali answered. ‘I saw his private parts and was ashamed.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N68 “When Allah’s Apostle returned from the battle of the Trench, he put down his arms and took a bath. Then Gabriel whose head was covered with dust, came to him saying, ‘You have put down your arms! By Allah, I have not put down my arms yet.’ Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Where to go now?’ Gabriel said, ‘This way,’ pointing towards the tribe of Qurayza. So Allah’s Apostle went out towards them.” Bukhari:V4B52N280 “When the Qurayza were ready to accept Sa’d’s judgment, the Apostle sent for him. Sa’d proclaimed, ‘I give the judgment that their men should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners.’ The Prophet remarked, ‘O Sa’d! You have judged them with the judgment of King Allah.’”
Ishaq:485 “Muhammad found that the Lihyan had been warned. They had taken secure positions on the mountaintops. After he failed to take them by surprise as he intended, he said, ‘If we go down to Usfan, the Meccans will think we have come to [terrorize] them.’” Ishaq:486 “If the Lihyan had remained in their homes they would have met bands of fine fighters, audacious warriors who terrorize. They would have confronted an irresistible force glittering like stars. But they were weasels, sticking to the clefts of rocks instead.”
Ishaq:489 “Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who believe there is no shame in killing. We don’t turn from piercing lances. We smite the heads of the haughty with blows that quash the zeal of the unyielding [non-Muslims]. We’re heroes, protecting our war banner. We are a noble force, as fierce as wolves. We preserve our honor and protect our property by smashing heads.”
Tabari VIII:48 “Then he set out at full speed after the enemy—he was like a beast of prey.”
Ishaq:490/Tabari VIII:51 “When Allah’s Messenger heard about the Mustaliq gathering against him he set out and met them at one of their watering holes near the coast. The people advanced and fought fiercely. Allah caused the Mustaliq to fight and killed some of them. Allah gave the Apostle their children, women, and property as booty.”
Muslim:B19N4292 “Aun inquired whether it was necessary to extend an invitation to submit to Islam before murdering infidels in the fight. Nafi told me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger made a raid upon Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. This Tradition was related by one who was among the raiding troops.”
Tabari VIII:56/Ishaq:493 “According to Aisha: ‘A great number of Mustaliq were wounded. The Messenger took many captives, and they were divided among all the Muslims.’”
Muslim:C26B20N4614 “I saw Allah’s Messenger twisting the forelock of a horse with his fingers as he was saying: ‘A great benefit. A reward for rearing them for Jihad. The spoils of war have been tied to the forelocks of horses.’”
Muslim:C28B20N4626 “Merit Of Jihad And Campaigning In Allah’s Cause: The Apostle said: ‘Allah has undertaken to look after the affairs of one who goes out to fight in His Way believing in Him and affirming the truth of His Apostle. He is committed that He will either admit him to Paradise or bring him back to his home with a reward or his share of booty. If a person gets wounded in Allah’s Cause he will arrive on the Day of Judgment with his wound in the same condition as it was when it was first inflicted; its color will be blood but its smell will be musk perfume. If it were not too hard on Muslims I would not lag behind any raid going out to fight in the Cause of Allah. But I do not have abundant means to provide them (the Mujahids [Islamic terrorists]) with riding beasts, nor have they all have the means (to provide themselves with the weapons of Jihad). I love to fight in the Way of Allah and be killed, to fight and again be killed and to fight and be killed.’”
Tabari VIII:123/Ishaq:515 “Allah’s Apostle besieged the final [Jewish] community until they could hold out no longer. Finally, when they were certain that they would perish, they asked Muhammad to banish them and spare their lives, which he did. The Prophet took possession of all their property.”
Bukhari:V5B59N510 “Allah’s Apostle reached Khaybar at night. It was his habit that, whenever he reached an enemy at night, he would not attack them till it was morning. When morning came, the Jews came out with their spades and baskets. When they saw the Prophet, they said, ‘Muhammad! O dear God! It’s Muhammad and his army!’ The Prophet shouted, ‘Allahu-Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a nation, evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N516 “When Allah’s Apostle fought the battle of Khaybar, or when he raided any other people, we raised voices crying, ‘Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar!’”
Tabari VIII:130 “The Prophet conquered Khaybar by force after fighting. Khaybar was something that Allah gave as booty to His Messenger. He took one-fifth of it and divided the remainder among the Muslims.”



Comment #467: JM said on 5/26/05 @ 1:26pm ET...

I have no problem with seperation of church and state but when that means my chidren are taught Qwansa (a "religion" invented in the 60's by a Berkley colledge proffesor) in school but not allowed to sing Christmas carols in school that is BIGOTRY and DISCRIMNATION that MR. Conyers supports



Comment #468: Mike said on 5/26/05 @ 1:27pm ET...

So, now we have state enforcement of blasphmey laws. How exciting. What ever happened to seperation of Church and State that the Dems are always on about? Guess it matters when they are trying to buy votes.



Comment #469: Heather said on 5/26/05 @ 1:33pm ET...

"""CAIR's FORMER director of community relations, Bassam Khafagi, was indicted in January, 2003 on bank fraud charges."""

Why is this oft repeated factoid (without the year included) relevant? Unless of course you were planning on offering up some child molesting Catholic priests as a comparison.

TIME FOR LUNCH!



Comment #470: CSM said on 5/26/05 @ 1:34pm ET...

As a long time legislator, I assumed you knew what the US Constitution contained. I guess once again the old addage regarding "assume" remains intact.



Comment #471: wwrwtw said on 5/26/05 @ 1:40pm ET...

City trio face terrorist charges at Old Bailey
A HOUSEWIFE and two city men look set to stand trial next year on charges of providing weapons and funds to a terrorist group.

Frzana Khan, a 41-year-old housewife from Anthony Way, Stoke, Mohammed Ajmal Khan, 30, of Broad Street, Foleshill, and Palvinder Singh, 29, of Freeman Street, Foleshill, face charges of conspiring to provide money and firearms to Kashmiri separatist group Lashkar-e-Tayyiba.

Mohammed Khan was further charged with being a member of a proscribed organisation.

The trio appeared before the Old Bailey on Monday via video link.

All three were remanded in custody until the next hearing on June 17. A trial date has been provisionally set for January.
http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/news/default1.asp?id=875



Comment #472: Bob Schmidt said on 5/26/05 @ 1:41pm ET...

Life is not fair.
The congressman needs to submit a resolution to make life fair.



Comment #473: Shaneequa said on 5/26/05 @ 1:48pm ET...

Congressman Conyers,

I have not received my free money. Where is my free money?



Comment #474: Max said on 5/26/05 @ 1:52pm ET...

"Diebold didn't vote in Ohio. "

Diebold didn't vote in OHIO? Think again and please start reading the facts first.

http://www.votersunite.org/info/Dieboldinthenews.pdf
http://www.votersunite.org/info/previousmessups.asp#ohio

Diebold tabulators WERE used in Ohio. Triad machines were used all over Ohio, and ES&S took up the rest.

"Cmon, That's just as foolish a source as the other one."

Then perhaps you'd be more able to actually read a REAL source which says the exact same thing?

http://www.yourbbsucks.com/davidraygriffin_cspan.mp3
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/preplanned.html
http://www.911blogger.com/2005/04/proper-release-of-griffin-in-madison.html

1%? I only deal in the facts, and you're starting to look devoid of them and foolish now. Over FIFTY PERCENT of Americans now know, are educated, and see the fact that 9/11 was not an outside job at all. It was an inside job, allowed to happen by the United States. And the administration lied about all of it, since they knew in advance these Islam extremists WOULD in fact attack.

And I would say the GOP former analyst in charge of intelligence more than qualifies as a "credible" witness. Instead of seesawing watch the full broadcast, from start to finish.

And you think more racist bigotry is going to help in some way? That's why wingnuts are now absolutely devoid of all logic. We should not be promoting real religious intolerance anywhere, and this wording of the bill is not the way to do it.

Max



Comment #475: TPO said on 5/26/05 @ 1:52pm ET...

So I would assume that Rep. Conyers will make sure there are no more taxpayer-funded NEA grants for a crucifix in a bottle of urine?



Comment #476: Al said on 5/26/05 @ 1:54pm ET...

The "forever in the dark" conyers . . . one of the main reasons I left Michigan long ago. This BS further confirms my correct decision.



Comment #477: Sheepdog said on 5/26/05 @ 1:59pm ET...

What's everybody think of this example of religious hate speech? What should we do with these guys? Do they qualify? Just askin.

Viacom's Showtime Slanders Mother Teresa

When shareholders of media conglomerate Viacom show up for their annual meeting tomorrow, they'll face the wrath of Catholic League President Dr. William Donahue over a shocking Showtime episode that slandered the late Mother Teresa and her order of nuns in the vilest of terms.

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According to Donahue, who plans a press conference in front of the hotel in New York City where the Viacom meeting is being held, an episode of Showtime's Penn and Teller show "Holier Than Thou" was a "Nazi-like assault on Catholicism, and on the person the show calls "Mother F*ing Teresa." Showtime is owned by Viacom.

Stormed Donahue: "In the 12 years that I have been president of the Catholic League, I have never witnessed a more vicious attack on Catholicism than what appeared this week on the Showtime program 'Penn and Teller.' The episode, 'Holier Than Thou,' was a frontal assault on Mother Teresa and her order of nuns, Missionaries of Charity (as well as Gandhi and the Dali Lama).

"Like most Americans, I like parodies and have no problem, per se, with irreverent humor. But when humor becomes insult, that is a different story. And that is what happens here: comedy quickly morphs to vitriol. Indeed, as the show progresses, the level of anger becomes palpable and the degree of distortion becomes mindboggling. This